Male Survivor SPEAKS OUT About Childhood Abuse

In this episode of 'Out of the Darkness,' host Ruth Hovsepian speaks with Mike Chapman, a survivor of severe childhood sexual abuse, about his journey to recovery and the work he does to help other male survivors. They discuss the impact of the Me Too movement, the institutional responses to abuse, the importance of preventing abuse in communities, and empowering children through body autonomy. The conversation emphasizes the need for open discussions about safety and sexuality to create safe spaces for children. In this conversation, Mike Chapman and Ruth Hovsepian delve into the complex issues surrounding familial trafficking, the changing perceptions of abuse highlighted by the Menendez brothers case, and the importance of recognizing signs of abuse. They discuss the healing power of storytelling and autobiographical journaling as effective tools for recovery, emphasizing that survivors are not alone and that there is hope for healing.

Takeaways

• Mike Chapman is a survivor of severe childhood sexual abuse.
• Men often take decades to disclose their abuse experiences.
• The Me Too movement has encouraged more men to speak out.
• Institutions often prioritize their reputation over victim support.
• Grooming is a common tactic used by abusers.
• Teaching children about body autonomy is crucial.
• Open conversations about sexuality can empower children.
• Parents should create safe spaces for their children to talk.
• Community safety measures are essential to prevent abuse.
• Every child can understand safety concepts at their level. Familial trafficking is a significant and often overlooked issue.
• Both male and female victims of trafficking exist and need support.
• The Menendez brothers case illustrates changing societal perceptions of abuse.
• Coercive control within families is a major red flag for abuse.
• Recognizing signs of trauma in children can be challenging but crucial.
• Storytelling can be a powerful tool for healing and recovery.
• Autobiographical journaling helps lessen feelings of shame and guilt.
• Survivors should be believed and supported in their healing journeys.
• There is hope and support available for those recovering from trauma.
• Sharing experiences can empower others and foster community healing.

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Transcript

Ruth Hovsepian (00:01.314)
Welcome to Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian and I'm your host Ruth. And today I'm joined by a truly resilient and inspiring guest, Mike Chapman. Mike is a survivor of severe childhood sexual abuse, familial trafficking, and ritual trauma. And he's overcome unimaginable challenges, including PTSD, codependency, and addiction.

Now a recovery life coach and brain spotting provider, Mike uses his experience to support other male survivors on their journey to healing through his work at Polar Life Consulting and Husband Material, as well as on his own podcast, which is called Healing for Male Survivors with Mike Chapman. In this episode, we explore his courageous path

to recovery and the work he does to help others move from surviving to thriving. Welcome, Mike.

Mike Chapman (01:02.926)
Thank you so much, Ruth. So honored to be on your podcast.

Ruth Hovsepian (01:07.952)
Well, Mike, thank you, as I said, and let's start off, if you can, share a little bit about your journey, who else but you could tell us your journey, and what were some of the biggest challenges you faced in your early recovery from the trauma you experienced?

Mike Chapman (01:28.954)
Well, yes. Thank you. Like you mentioned, journey, when I tell my story, it bounces around a little bit because that's how it happened. The first memory of sexual impropriety, I guess, was at the age of 20. I was attending a Methodist church in college at my college town.

And the senior minister took an interest in me and then actually sexually assaulted me, eventually and going through that and wondering, okay, what was it about me? Was there, you know, did he see something in me? and most victims tend to

Ruth Hovsepian (02:17.478)
self-blame.

Mike Chapman (02:18.604)
Right, exactly. What did I do wrong? What did I do to cause that? And it's even worse when children are victims and they remember what's happening and they don't block it out. What did I do to cause it? So, and no, I was in the right place in the right time and they used their position of power and authority to get that thing that they wanted. And that story and theme happens over and over for survivors.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:25.425)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:46.684)
Hmm.

Mike Chapman (02:46.926)
of abuse and trafficking and then just getting to the point of telling someone about this happening and the current research for men. First disclosure after abuse stops is 25 years before they tell anyone about what happened. and perps know this, they say

Ruth Hovsepian (03:10.406)
Wow.

Mike Chapman (03:15.348)
If they don't necessarily have a gender preference, they will choose boys because boys don't tell.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:22.65)
Yeah, it's, you know, we are seeing a little bit more of men coming forward. But yeah. And you're right, Mike, if anything, that Me Too movement, you know, broke the silence from men's side, because typically when we think of any kind of sexual abuse, we quickly

Mike Chapman (03:29.484)
Yes. Yes, since the Me Too movement and so forth, the last decade, that's been a huge movement. Yes.

Mike Chapman (03:44.79)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:49.648)
you know, liken it to a young girl or a female, but you know, I've, I've been privileged to speak with many a man on, you know, out of the darkness about their childhood abuse, whether it was sexual or physical or, you know, and familial abuse, those are, it's tough. And I can understand where that hesitancy comes from, right? And

Mike Chapman (04:07.116)
Bye.

Mike Chapman (04:16.407)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:17.052)
You know, I can imagine as a woman, it's hard enough to talk about it. But as a man who's supposed to be able, you know, to be strong and to

Mike Chapman (04:27.138)
Be strong, right? Right. So it's like, well, why didn't you stop it? And it's like, okay, the power dynamic, for one thing. Yeah, that they will use that. And that's part of grooming that they develop trust and build trust and so forth. And it's not only the potential victim who is groomed, but it's the whole support system. like for the minister.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:35.642)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:41.372)
Mm.

Mike Chapman (04:56.366)
He's been grooming the church this whole time to get them to believe that he's safe, that he's safe around other people, that he's safe around teenage boys, which was his preference. And then when things, I found out later, he had been moved from state to state and several other victims have come forward where the abuse happened in similar ways in other states during other decades.

So this has been an ongoing thing, might happen in the 80s, others were 70s and the 60s where this occurred. But that's been the theme for so many churches, including the Catholic Church, where instead of confronting the issue, they kind of ignore it, they minimize it, they will move the offending leader to other places. And you see that Catholic Church, Boy Scouts, all these other groups.

Ruth Hovsepian (05:53.158)
Yep. Yep.

Mike Chapman (05:54.434)
And the sad thing, the church should be focusing on the victim, helping the victim. But like any institution, they circle the wagons, if you will, to protect the institution at all costs. If it means victim blaming, victim shaming, minimizing the role of their quote unquote leader and

Mike Chapman (06:25.484)
blowing up and blaming the victim. what did you do? See, you let them on all of these things because the institution needs to be protected at all costs. And sadly, that is how the church often responds that they circle around their leader to support their leader and, they're just making this up there. But

Ruth Hovsepian (06:26.684)
Yeah.

Mike Chapman (06:49.57)
This person had horrible hurt. They're coming forward. No one would make this up because the shame and so forth and they the false memory syndrome. That's not a thing that's been disproven. So even if it was something decades ago that comes out, you don't make this stuff up.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:10.948)
Yeah. And, and you know, we, we have, and you know, I know that there's a lot of lingo that is, you know, very much in the 2024 kind of circa in that, you know, we talk about trauma and grooming and we didn't, we didn't have those. I don't want to say this, but buzzwords, you know, that we, we use, but I'm glad that in a way that we do have those words, because now we can very specifically.

Mike Chapman (07:25.304)
Right.

Mike Chapman (07:31.395)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:40.812)
Say what it is and people understand what it is that we're referring to. And I know that, you know, I've also spoken on this podcast about how there is abuse in the church. And we don't want to address it because there is shame involved in it. And well, shame, mean, shame for those that didn't see it or be wise enough to pick up on it.

And didn't do their due diligence when they brought somebody into their midst, right? Because it's not just the pastor. could be a youth leader. could be a church member. It could be someone in the church. And, and nowadays we are seeing the, you know, getting into these, into these situations where the churches are being proactive rather than reactive.

And we as churches need to set up boundaries. We need to set up, steps to take rather than waiting for something like this to fall on us and say, my goodness, how do we deal with it? We should know how to deal with it. Cut it off. Cut, cut the, you know, the dragon's head off, cut it right off. You know, none of this like.

Mike Chapman (08:38.701)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (09:00.044)
Right, right, right.

Ruth Hovsepian (09:08.859)
pandering.

Mike Chapman (09:10.072)
Right, I know a lot of churches, they're doing safety rules and so forth and coming in, everyone has a badge and the parents will get like a little spirally bracelet or whatever with the code number. And if you don't have that, you can't pick up the kid. So it's not some random parent or ex or whoever coming in. But, and that's wonderful. That helps ensure it. And I know

Ruth Hovsepian (09:20.838)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (09:30.788)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Chapman (09:37.88)
The last of the church I attended, we just moved to a new area. They were very clear to leaders, you are never to be alone with a child. It either has to be two adults and one child or one adult and two children. Those situations are okay, but never one-on-one. That is not allowed. If you're left one-on-one, you need to leave and bring someone back in or ask the child to leave.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:00.144)
You know, it's a sad day, right? When we have to put these plans into play, but it is what it is and we need to protect our children. But it is a sad day because I remember back in the day, you know, I would look after the kids in nursery. I would be alone. And, you know, people who think that, women are not abusers. Hello, have you been listening to 2024?

Mike Chapman (10:03.598)
That's right.

Mike Chapman (10:26.85)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:29.404)
And the number of teachers that are women who are the abusers of both young men and young women. So no one is safe. we need to also, we need to teach our children that you have the power. You need to speak up. Adults are not to scare you. know, like they shouldn't have this kind of.

Mike Chapman (10:34.914)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (10:41.197)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:59.15)
a grip on you because now, now having said that there are many people who have gotten into these situations because they are so isolated, right? And, and, and especially, especially teenagers and you know, those in their early twenties where they may have had issues at home and they're on their own or

Mike Chapman (11:22.712)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:27.856)
don't have a bond with their families.

Mike Chapman (11:30.9)
Exactly. And that's part of the grooming process. The perpetrator, it's like a lion and even the biblical, the Satan is like a lion looking to for someone to devour. And they will look at the herd, okay, where's the weak link in the herd? And their pros at spotting, okay, this is the weak person. Okay, parents aren't involved and just their countenance, how they respond.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:34.212)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (12:00.222)
is that they will pick right up on that. there's whatever their demographic is, whatever their preference is, then they find the weak one that fits that demographic. And how can they then groom the person, groom the people around them to allow eventually leading to the abuse? So things to prevent that would be teaching children body autonomy. So this is your body. If

Ruth Hovsepian (12:05.297)
Mm.

Mike Chapman (12:29.536)
You don't want Aunt Helen to when she comes for Thanksgiving to give you a big wet sloppy kiss. You can say, no, thank you. And that's okay. You need to teach children and respect that for children. They don't need to be hugged and kissed by every single relative if they don't feel comfortable. If they do fine, but

Ruth Hovsepian (12:50.49)
Yeah. And, and, and get the adults in on that too, and make them understand that, you know, I, yeah, I'm, I'm around young, young children. I, I mentor, a young woman who has a young family. And I would never ever imagine walking into that household and presuming that the children want a hug and a kiss and whatever else. Now.

Mike Chapman (12:54.37)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:19.534)
As children get to know you and if you're safe, they'll come to you. They will. And I've seen it with my own children. yeah, you know, like I have three and some were more socially, you know, friendly and adaptable and they hugged and kissed. I'm of a European descent. That's all we do, you know, are hugs and kisses and touching. But.

Mike Chapman (13:24.142)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike Chapman (13:42.573)
Ha

right

Ruth Hovsepian (13:49.114)
I would never force my kids to go and, know, or for me to say, go, go, give. No, if my child did it, it came naturally. That's what they wanted. That's what they did it. But we also have to make adults aware of why, you know, I've seen other dynamics now in family where parents are like, we don't do that. And they come across really like, anyway, harsh and unnecessarily because

Mike Chapman (14:17.528)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:17.582)
You can actually educate people as to why your children are not forced to do it because there are these people who prey on young children.

Mike Chapman (14:28.206)
Right. And the bulk of perpetrators for childhood sexual abuse, they're known by the family. It's not the stranger danger that some random person coming up in a van offering candy. It's someone who grooms not only the child, but the parents, the group that they're in, that they are safe so that everyone

Ruth Hovsepian (14:40.336)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:54.289)
Yeah.

Mike Chapman (14:56.323)
he seems so safe, so caring. Single mom of this random guy who volunteers at this particular group. yes, well, let me take him, take little Johnny with me to whatever and give you a break. Develops that trust, develops that bonding. Then they will, once they feel they've convinced this child that they're safe, then no one, if he does tell, no one will believe.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:00.077)
Yep, yep.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:23.494)
Safety in numbers as well Yeah, I I I Harry I was a single mom of three kids. Let me tell you spidey sensors You need it, you know parents wake up, you know, they're they're good

Mike Chapman (15:25.6)
Exactly, exactly.

Mike Chapman (15:30.734)
Mm-hmm.

Right. And especially if you are a single parent and you start dating, you do not know their background. They could be trying to groom you so they can get to your child. You need to know their background, criminal background history, something, but you do not leave them alone with your child if you do not know them very well.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:51.302)
Yeah.

Mike Chapman (16:02.05)
because that could be their whole thing. And it's case after case after case of abuse. It's family members happens so much that it's family members or people who are known to the family.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:04.924)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:11.26)
Mmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:16.624)
And these are conversations that we have to have, you know, as a family, as an extended family. And I think that we need to talk to our children about it and educate them about it, not just protect our children. Right. There's a time and place where, you know, you become mama bear and papa bear, and you protect your children. You do what you got to do. I've always said that. My, you don't, you don't touch my children. You don't talk about my children in a certain way.

Mike Chapman (16:19.5)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (16:35.79)
Right.

Right.

Mike Chapman (16:42.542)
Bye.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:46.052)
Now on the other side, it's also up to me to have those hard conversations with my children so that they are just as much aware. And I've heard parents say, and I've had them say it to me, they're too young to understand. No, no, every child at a certain age can grasp and understand what you're saying at their own level. If you're in, if you're in tune with your children.

Mike Chapman (17:12.77)
Right, right.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:17.044)
You know what a child at five can understand and you tell them.

Mike Chapman (17:22.84)
Right. And you can use simple language like, your swimsuit area. You know, if you go swimsuit, anything that's under your suit, that's your own private body thing. If we go to a doctor, that's okay. Or mom and dad, that's okay if we need to check something, but we shouldn't even be touching it that much. If you're concerned or you've got some kind of disease that you want us to check, fine. But that's like no, touch zone.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:46.14)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (17:50.858)
And you can explain it in their level. so no one should be touching those areas. And if they do, you're not in trouble. It's okay. But you come and tell mom and dad if someone tries to touch you in those areas, because that's not okay.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:51.056)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (18:05.69)
You know, I came to understand with my children and, you know, I was sort of the, you know, the mother of many other children from outside. And more often than not, the strays came in. And I say that in the most loving of ways. Most, they were my strays. I love them to death. And I'm known as Mama Ruth to many of them.

Mike Chapman (18:17.133)
Ryan.

Mike Chapman (18:30.242)
Right.

Mike Chapman (18:34.064)
Ruth Hovsepian (18:35.152)
And they, let me tell you, adults are responsible to build safe havens for their children and for other children. And these children have to know that they can talk to you about anything. We are responsible for that. And I spoke to my children very openly about things.

And I did not mystify what sexuality was. We spoke of things nonchalantly about it. There was nothing dirty about it. There was nothing that we had to hide. I mean, we weren't crude about it. And, you know, we weren't in the, restaurant yelling at the top of our lungs. There was a time and place for it. There was respect for a healthy respect for it. But.

They knew what was what and way ahead of their peers. And I would say to them, look, not your place to go and tell so and so about this, but I'm telling you because whatever the situation was and those conversations were had with these bonus children as well. We are responsible for a healthy,

Mike Chapman (19:55.598)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:00.86)
of our children that they feel safe, that they feel they have someone to go to. And it should be, it should be as a parent, they should feel comfortable to come to me now. Now you may say, you know, Ruth, are parents who abuse. Yes, that's yeah. And that's, that is.

Mike Chapman (20:12.514)
Right.

Mike Chapman (20:25.314)
Yes, and that was part of my story as well. Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:30.84)
As a mom, Mike, that breaks my heart. I cannot, cannot imagine.

Mike Chapman (20:35.234)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (20:39.244)
And it's not only fathers and stepfathers, but also mothers and stepmothers. It's both sides. victims are not always female. They're often male. And that needs to change. And trafficking, familial trafficking is a huge issue. And I hear so many stories where the trafficking with

Ruth Hovsepian (20:57.284)
out.

Mike Chapman (21:08.802)
the family members happens behind the scenes within church groups, believe it or not. Not satanic groups, it happens there too, but these are regular churches and they'll use biblical verses or whatever to use that power dynamic, like I mentioned earlier. And oftentimes with leadership within those churches, not always, but yes, there'll be a front for trafficking rings.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:16.038)
Yeah.

Mike Chapman (21:38.518)
Which is horrifying and using the church and Those oftentimes it's mom or mom and dad and who are the traffickers but then the the sellers but then also the buyers the people who then

get use of the children, also some male, some female. And it's horrifying that it happens, but we're learning more as a society compared to 20, 30 years ago. I think the perfect example of that, at least in the US, what's coming out in current events, I'm not sure if you're hearing about it there in Canada, the Menendez brothers trial. Huge, it happened in 89, their murder of their parents.

Ruth Hovsepian (22:27.129)
Yes.

Yes, yes.

Mike Chapman (22:32.022)
and then convicted in the mid 90s and the attitudes no one I watched the documentary of the new one on Netflix. They showed the public response at the time. No one believed them because no one talked about boys getting sexually abused. So they assumed it never happens. And because of that, they assumed they must be lying and making this stuff up. And now

since the MeToo movement, people started posting TikToks, videos, all these things about the Menendez. This is like before COVID and the late 20 teens about this case saying, no, this is so wrong. They need to overturn it. And that documentary clarifies, okay, the second trial happened right after the OJKs, like within two weeks of that case and the LA,

Ruth Hovsepian (23:10.427)
Yep.

Mike Chapman (23:31.928)
Defense Department or the District Attorney's Office who handles these cases, they were in such a bad place that they changed the rules for the second trial. is the second trial that they were under. So it basically guaranteed a conviction that none of the evidence was going to be seen.

all those members of the family who were in the first trial, who shared about all the abuse they witnessed firsthand of the boys and what they heard about secondhand, all that was not allowed in the second trial. So, of course, they got a guilty conviction. And now it's really looking like they are, if not overturning the conviction, downgrading it so they qualify for parole.

Ruth Hovsepian (24:31.18)
it, yeah, I'm, I'm rarely at a loss for words, but I've been following this, this trial as well, like this case as well, because yeah, all I can say is we need to stop blaming those who have been abused for abuse and giving them the space to talk.

Mike Chapman (24:41.507)
Right.

Mike Chapman (24:53.816)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (24:59.054)
And, believing them because just because it doesn't fit your norm, it doesn't fit your understanding of families or nature. It doesn't mean that they're like, yes, there are the exceptions to the rule. Yes, there are people that will, you know, raise the hand and say, I've been abused and use it for whatever.

Mike Chapman (25:06.392)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:28.88)
But I rather veer towards believing and being, you know, proven wrong than not believing and then saying, what have I done? These, you know, they, they were abused. There was abuse, but Mike, can you share with us, you know, maybe a couple of signs that an observer or someone.

Mike Chapman (25:35.341)
Right.

Mike Chapman (25:44.908)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:59.076)
You know, who is around someone who's being, you know, maybe abused or groomed. Can we see these flags or can we identify certain things?

Mike Chapman (26:14.542)
Good question. know the family members, specifically in the Menendez case, it's what used to be called domestic violence. They have a more broader term called coercive control. That this power dynamic, in that case with the dad and then the mom following suit, controlling every aspect of these boys' lives, knowing that no, you're not allowed to go off.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:29.852)
Mm.

Mike Chapman (26:43.302)
And one of them was going to go off to New York state from California to go to college and get away. No, you are not allowed to basically you leave. I will hunt you down and kill you. And that is what happens in so many of these, horrible family situations. So that would be a huge red flag if there's a family member who has such severe coercive control of.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:51.196)
Mm.

Mike Chapman (27:12.396)
the other family members, whether it's the spouse or the children, the chances are it goes beyond just the control. They will do whatever is necessary to keep that control and fear rules. So many things.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:25.564)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (27:35.296)
I don't know for me, I repressed memory. I don't know what necessarily what those red flags would have been other than yeah, I was distant. I was distracted. A lot of children who are suffering abuse at the time get mislabeled, misdiagnosed attention deficit. But if you give them the medication, are they focusing more or is it like speed? If it's like speed, this is not ADHD.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:45.052)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (28:04.696)
This is something else that something else is drawing their attention. If they're going through a C PTSD, which is complex PTSD, it means it's trauma that's not only one time major event, but it was ongoing to the point where your body, it goes into that fight or flight stance. And there's a whole bunch of F's qualify in that area as well for trauma responses.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:32.742)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (28:34.561)
but the trauma continues to the point where the body no longer knows that it's safe. And so that fight flight response going on in their brain continues never ending. So the body, the brain is constantly on alert trying to keep themselves safe. You got to keep us safe. So all that energy on

Ruth Hovsepian (28:49.852)
Hmm.

Mike Chapman (29:03.15)
Keeping us safe is taking up so much space in the brain that there's not a lot of room for other things. So you see the distractions. Those are kinds of red flags of constant.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:20.55)
Yeah.

Mike Chapman (29:21.72)
trauma that's happening, whatever it is.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:22.908)
And probably acting out, right, as children. Yeah.

Mike Chapman (29:27.48)
sometimes if they know a little too much sexually or act out sexually or draw pictures, that would be inappropriate. That would be red flags too. that something's going on. yeah. And there's all kinds of studies about that. Absolutely. But another thing, part of my podcast.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:34.67)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:47.129)
Mm.

Mike Chapman (29:56.172)
The theme of my podcast is a power of story. And I have a lot of male survivors of abuse and or trafficking who come on and share their stories. The power of story. One of the reasons why the Menendez case is even looked at right now is because there was a band in the eighties, the Menudo, Menudo, which is a Puerto Rican based band, boy band, one of the first before the

Ruth Hovsepian (30:02.758)
you

Mike Chapman (30:25.55)
Caucasian boy bands were a thing and it was basically a sex trafficking front for all the music executives and so forth to abuse the members of the band. And one member came forward recently and said, yes, this is my story. And this leader of Menudo actually took me to California while they were signing a record deal.

And the music executive also, we went to that man's house and he also sexually abused me. And his name? Menendez. It was Kyle and Eric's father who also abused this boy band member sexually. And because he recently came out with that truth, that is now evidence that is helping to

Ruth Hovsepian (31:06.181)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:12.388)
Hmm

Mike Chapman (31:22.382)
get the Menendez brothers out 30, 40 years after their trial to reconsider their case.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:23.996)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:31.334)
I mean, we can go off into a whole other tangent with what has been coming out in the news about a whole bunch of other things. I really would appreciate if you can help us, you know, as a recovery life coach, and I have to look up what a brain spotting provider was. And I think that's a whole other episode talking about that specifically. But what have you found to be, you

Mike Chapman (31:37.954)
Yes. Yes.

Mike Chapman (31:55.301)
yes!

Ruth Hovsepian (32:01.052)
Maybe one or two that you can encourage someone who has gone through trauma that there is hope on the other side. Is there something that you can share, maybe a practice or something that they can do for themselves?

Mike Chapman (32:12.813)
Yes.

Mike Chapman (32:17.94)
Absolutely. I was at an online workshop recently, and I mentioned this on a recent podcast episode as well. You've heard of ACEs, the ACE study, which stands for adverse childhood experiences. This is went with, I think, Kaiser Permanente and the Centers for Disease Control in the US and Atlanta. They did this study, I think, 10, 20 years ago. They came up with 10 most common traumas.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:30.705)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (32:47.84)
And so they developed a quiz saying, has any of these top 10 traumas happened to you as a child? And you answer that yes or no. And however many yeses you get, that's your score, zero to 10. Then they took that and they followed, looked at all the different ways health measures.

a social note of measures, mental health measures. And it's this huge list of even with three or more, four or more, tremendous huge spike in pregnancy or fathering children out of wedlock, drug abuse, physical issues like liver issues, kidney issues, heart issues, food issues.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:35.546)
Hmm

Mike Chapman (33:46.282)
running away suicide attempts all these different things smoking lung issues

more higher than average population. And someone at this workshop talked to this expert who was discussing ACEs, this is about the last year, and they said, okay, I scored a nine, what can I do to help lessen the impact of all these multiple traumas? And the study just did the 10 most common. So if you have others that aren't listed,

Ruth Hovsepian (34:11.024)
Wow.

Mike Chapman (34:23.01)
count them if you want, just for this particular study, they can get the stats, they only chose the top 10. So you can figure out, but then this other thing happened, this other thing happened, and you can figure out your score accordingly, and that's cool. But for that particular study, they use those top 10. He said to this lady who approached him, the most powerful way and effective way to lessen a

The effects of a high ACE score is autobiographical journaling, which means telling your story. And that's the power of story, whether it's a podcast medium like you and I do, or there's different online groups, including anonymous online groups, getting it out of your head, getting it on paper, whether it's journaling, typing, whatever.

Ruth Hovsepian (35:08.4)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (35:19.404)
sharing it with one other person, just getting it out. It helps lessen the shame, the guilt, which shouldn't be on us anyway as survivors, but it helps you to process it, to get it out. And if you do it with another person, they can give you a feedback, especially if it's a survivor. They can, you know, well, I think it was this here or gee, have you heard about these resources who can help you? That kind of thing. And

That was huge in my own healing. Once I started to share, it was just such a release. And there's such power in that because it not only helps you getting that out of your head, but other people can hear it and see your journey and you become their role model for their healing.

Ruth Hovsepian (36:01.862)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (36:09.434)
You know, Mike, I, I'm so glad that you, you, talked about this because I can attest to it. I tell you, you know, those that have followed me along in my journey for the last two, three years will know that my recovery from my past trauma, you know, my addiction and trauma was done in secret because I couldn't talk about it.

And when my first book came out, it was part memoir, part, just like right up here, you know, like not going anywhere. And I tell you, the moment that that went down on paper and I had to tell people about it, I could feel a likeness in the way I walk.

Mike Chapman (36:58.222)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Chapman (37:03.821)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (37:05.934)
Over the last two years, I've been on dozens and dozens of podcasts. I've talked about my past on my own podcast. Hey, you and I are fortunate, Mike, we've got our platforms, right? And we can talk about it and nobody can censor us. And I tell you, you are a hundred percent right. And, and anyone listening and watching today, put it on paper, verbalize it because

Mike Chapman (37:18.573)
Right?

Ruth Hovsepian (37:34.516)
my goodness, the healing that took place in me, I couldn't have paid for that because it was, it was also a validation of who I am and that I was worthy of what that healing was about. know, ever, you know, since the first, my first book I've written about it, talked about it and

Mike Chapman (37:38.083)
Right.

Mike Chapman (37:42.69)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (38:03.548)
Actually my 2025 project is writing my full memoir. I've been asked to do that and I'm telling you, Mike, it's a tough one. You know, because those memories that, and I'm really good at this. People wonder, you know, you don't remember this. Don't you remember this? And my kids will say, mom, do you remember? And I, I'm telling you, your mind can really protect you. And I have.

Mike Chapman (38:14.56)
I'm sure.

Ruth Hovsepian (38:33.284)
You know, like I have compartmentalized, I've sealed and put it away. And as I've been working through it, I have said, yeah, I have that memory. It's coming back and you know, it's there, but, but I look at them in a very different way. I don't know about you, but I say, when I look back at all those years as a child.

Mike Chapman (38:54.168)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (39:00.812)
And as a 30, 40-year-old addict, I look at it like a movie.

It's, don't, it doesn't bring me down. I don't get that, you know, I'm not depressed anymore. look at it and they're facts. Now it's my story. can talk about it and it doesn't affect me into sliding back into it. You know, when you're still in and I've talked about this with others who have gone through healing journeys where I can hear it in their voice, right? As they're retelling, I can.

Mike Chapman (39:28.675)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (39:38.854)
Feel them dipping into, you know, that a different place. And when you're on the other side of healing, you don't have those same emotions. you, you, tell your story in a different way. I tell it like you to reach that one person at that corner of the room.

Mike Chapman (39:49.902)
Hmm

Ruth Hovsepian (40:05.126)
who thinks that they are alone. And I say this, you are not alone. Mike has been through his trauma and he is here today. Ruth has been through her trauma and she is here today and we want to help you. And that's why we do what we do, right? That's why I do it is to help that one person sitting in the corner who feels that no one will

Mike Chapman (40:12.14)
Right.

Mike Chapman (40:22.52)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (40:35.084)
understand what they've been through or what they're going through and to give them hope. Mike, time has really gone by and I really would love for you to come back. There is so much we can, we can, I know you're a busy man. I know you are and I really...

Mike Chapman (40:39.053)
Right.

Mike Chapman (40:44.844)
Right.

Mike Chapman (40:53.048)
But doing this is a joy. So I would be honored to come back.

Ruth Hovsepian (40:57.572)
Well, I want to thank you and I want to thank our listeners today and those who are watching us for joining us on out of the darkness. If this episode and what Mike has shared with you today resonates with you, please go to his social media, go to his website. All of the information is in the show notes, you know, connect with him, connect with me. You know, me, you're getting to know Mike. And as I said, I'd love to have him back.

but please subscribe to my podcast, to his podcast. And we go into topics of healing and hope and other people's stories to give you the strength to get onto your healing journey. And remember to share this episode with anyone who might need encouragement or support on their journey to recovery. Let's continue shedding light on the path to healing together. Thank you, Mike.

Mike Chapman (41:55.725)
Thank you, honor and privilege to be here on your podcast. Thank you so much.