The Church's Shifting Stance on Sexuality

In this episode of 'Out of the Darkness,' host Ruth Hovsepian and guest Charlie Flock discuss the controversial topic of how church leadership is shifting biblical teachings on sexuality to align with contemporary societal views. They explore the implications of this shift, share personal testimonies, and emphasize the importance of adhering to biblical truths. The conversation also addresses the church's selective approach to sin, the need for contextual understanding of scripture, and the role of the faith community in supporting individuals struggling with sexual identity. The episode concludes with advice for navigating societal pressures and the impact of pornography on relationships.

Takeaways

• Church leaders are increasingly accepting of homosexuality.
• Biblical teachings on sexuality are being reinterpreted.
• Personal testimonies can illuminate the truth of scripture.
• Sin is sin, regardless of its form.
• Contextual understanding of scripture is crucial.
• The church must support individuals struggling with sin.
• Reading the Bible is essential for spiritual growth.
• Pornography is a significant issue in today's society.
• Christians should not equate the sinner with the sin.
• God's love and redemption are available to all.

Scripture References:
James 8:1
Matthew 18:6
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-27
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Hebrews 13:8
John 1:1, 14
Psalm 40:1-3

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Transcript

Ruth Hovsepian (00:01.356)
Welcome to Out of the Darkness. I'm your host, Ruth Hovsepian Today's episode covers a really significant and controversial topic. And this is a topic I have wanted to talk about for a while, just needed the right guests to come on board and talk to us and help us, you know, take this apart. And the topic we are looking at is how today's leadership in our churches and social influencers

are shifting the biblical teachings on sexuality to fit the narrative of what we are seeing in the world and how to fit what the world is wanting us to accept. But what does the Bible say and how does the Bible support this idea? Is it biblical? So joining me as my guest today is Charlie Flock, who has a heart for biblical truth and clarity.

on this subject will be discussing what the Bible truly says and why it's important for churches to stay rooted in scripture. He has also written a book and I encourage you to go and get this book about his journey. It's called A Life Shattered by Homosexuality Redeemed by Jesus's Love. Charlie, welcome to the show.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (01:26.653)
Thank you, Ruth. I feel welcomed.

Ruth Hovsepian (01:29.912)
Well, let's start with this. Just a question right off the top. Why do you think more churches and leaders are embracing the idea that it's okay to be gay? It's okay to define sexuality the way we want it and be accepting of the world's view of sexuality. How do you believe this, you know, has, what conflict does this have with God's word?

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (02:00.319)
That's a big question. Actually, I tell people I'm glad I got set free back in the 80s from my homosexuality. And the reason I say that is because today pastors, preachers and teachers and churches all over this country are telling people it's okay to be gay. But it's okay to fornicate. It's okay to live with someone even though you're not married to them.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:03.051)
It is.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:10.818)
Mmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (02:30.929)
And I'm very concerned about these teachers and preachers. And the reason for that is, is that it's against God's word. And in James chapter three, verse one, it says, My brother

Do not. I'm sorry. Let me do that again. Got to put on my spectacles in. In James chapter three, verse one, it says, My brother, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. And then in Matthew chapter 18, verse six, Jesus tells us, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:53.484)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:06.743)
Mmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (03:17.009)
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea. I think that makes it pretty clear about what God thinks about what teachers are supposed to be teaching. And if pastors and preachers and churches are telling people it's okay to sin, I'm afraid these people are going to be cast into the sea, if you will.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:43.948)
Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (03:45.351)
And I say all of this because my testimony started at the age of four when I was molested by an 18 year old boy who lived across the street from me. And that act plus other things opened doors to me that led me into a homosexual lifestyle that lasted 32 years. And 10 of those years, I was married to a woman.

And I remained married to that woman for a total of 50 years before she went home to be with Jesus. And it took God to fix our marriage. It took God to lead me down a path that took me to the Scriptures. Because you see, in the Scripture that always haunted me from the time I entered into this lifestyle is in Leviticus chapter 20 verse 13.

And it says of a man lays with a male as he lays with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them. And the interesting thing about the word abomination in the New King James, think it's translated detestable. And Paul uses that word in Romans and the word means literally to be led away, led from.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:58.414)
Mm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (05:07.943)
And if you can be led from something, then you could be led back. in Romans chapter one, Paul tells us that for this reason, God gave them up to vile passions, or even their women exchanged natural use of what is against nature. Likewise, also men having the nature, leaving the natural use of a woman burned in their lusts one for another.

Ruth Hovsepian (05:13.059)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (05:27.224)
Yeah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (05:35.515)
men with men committing what is shameful and receiving themselves a penalty of their error, which is due. I think that kind of speaks very clearly no matter how you try and twist that. And I've talked to a lot of people who do try and twist that. But you have to go back whenever you study the word. I'm being taught in my Bible college at the church I attend that you must study history, context, and language. And

Ruth Hovsepian (06:04.394)
Amen.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (06:05.947)
And if you don't follow that, then you get off track. The scripture Paul uses in 1 Corinthians, chapter six, is nine through 11. It says, not be deceived. Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexuals nor sodomites nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor rivalers nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And the interesting thing, if you stop there, that's all condemnation.

But Paul doesn't stop there. goes on and he said, and such were some of you past tense, meaning they used to be that way, but they've come out of those lifestyles. And that spoke volumes to me when I first heard that. Because he goes on and he says, but you were washed, you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God. And for me, that spoke.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:43.564)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:52.579)
Yeah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (07:06.527)
so many volumes and I've had people come at me and they say, well, that's the Bible. That was good 2000 years ago, but today it doesn't apply. And so I go, okay, well, let's look at that. If you look in Hebrews chapter 13 verse eight, it says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Now, if you take that and go to John chapter one, starting in verse one,

It says, the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then we drop down to verse 14, and it says, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. So that tells me that Jesus is the Word. So if Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever,

Ruth Hovsepian (07:38.924)
Hmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (08:01.545)
then the word is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So what is spoken in the word applies to us today. It doesn't get changed over time. I always ask people, well, did God change his mind? And they go, yeah, but, and that's what gets to me.

Ruth Hovsepian (08:19.367)
Yeah. There's a couple of things that, that I want to address in, what you have said. I, I, so I agree with you a hundred percent. And I have had. So my, my story is very similar to your story. So we, have had to stand up. You and I with.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (08:28.681)
OK.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (08:46.334)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (08:46.742)
these types of verses and speak out against the way certain things are being spoken about and treated. One of the things that I have noticed, because I'm also a divorced mother of three children. So there are certain things that the church does. So this is the one thing I want to address is how the church, and I'm talking about not the body of Christ, but the church as a.

corporation has picked, has picked on certain sins that, that fit their narrative and will, will stick to those, know, like talk about those all the time. One is divorce and one is homosexuality. Now divorce.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (09:17.951)
Okay.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (09:26.963)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (09:45.044)
I believe that in first Corinthians chapter six, where, where you read that list off of all the different things shows that a sin is a sin. God, you know, does not look at homosexuality sin, any different than the person, the man or woman who cheats on his wife or husband equally wrong in the sight of God.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (09:51.292)
Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (09:57.329)
Yes, absolutely.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (10:15.625)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:15.904)
And we tend to pick on a divorce as a sin that, you know, you cannot walk away, you live without shame. For a long time, you may not even be allowed in some denominations to partake in some areas of ministry. That's one thing. The other one is homosexuality. When someone who,

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (10:38.9)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:44.802)
comes into the church and is openly identifying as a homosexual. They, Christians tend, and they do that outside too, right? When they're walking and they see a homosexual, rather than talking about sin, sin in general, and how God died on the cross for our sins, we pick on one particular sin. Therefore,

They tune us out. And I have said, a man who cheats on his wife is no better.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:25.792)
And why, why do we differentiate between them or the person who goes to work late every day and steals company hours from their boss or the person who cheats on his taxes and does not pay taxes.

So we have gotten to the point where we pick and choose what fits our narrative. And now we've gone to the other extreme of accepting what we call lifestyle choices, which, which where in the Bible do we, we see that. And you're right. That's right. So to me, these are.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (12:09.821)
We don't.

Ruth Hovsepian (12:14.7)
Two areas that Christians have adapted to their own liking. These sins, well, okay, we're humans. We do it, but these sins, no, they're like, whatever. And I think this is where we start to lose people when we are out there.

talking about the most important thing that was given to, you know, the great commission, and that is to go and tell the world about this amazing gift that was given to us.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (12:50.291)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:01.459)
It's how do we change this mindset in our churches?

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (13:08.639)
If I could answer that, I could be a millionaire.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:11.918)
I was hoping for a very simple solution. know, I'm joking there, but...

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (13:18.661)
The church that I attend, it's a pastored by a woman pastor who has been ministering for 43 years. And the thing I like about this church is that she speaks only the word of God. And the thing is a lot of Christians on the other extreme associate the sin and the sinner as the same. So as it says in Leviticus,

Ruth Hovsepian (13:33.325)
Mm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (13:46.877)
that homosexuals, the act is an abomination. They say that the person is an abomination, which is a lie right out of the pit of hell. And I, I know I was in ministry for about six or seven years dealing with people who wanted to be come out of homosexuality. My wife and I were a team and the stories I heard of people, Christians who condemned these people so badly.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:51.735)
Right.

Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (14:16.553)
They just said, to heck with it, I'm going back into the lifestyle because at least there I'm accepted.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:20.078)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:24.512)
Yeah, you know, short of wearing a scarlet letter here, after my divorce, that's how I was treated as well. And I, that's what one of the things I really would love to, and this is what I always do is we need to be aware of what

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (14:32.606)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:53.89)
the Bible says we, and what you said about the study of scripture, not a verse only, but the verses around it, the chapter, the book, the history, you know, what was happening and who, you know, Peter was writing to or who John was writing, you know,

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (14:55.849)
Mm-hmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (15:05.545)
Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (15:09.097)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:22.902)
Why was this said and taking it in the right context? Otherwise, what we end up doing is what you, you, you have said, and that is we, we, we, we take it out of context and we apply it, you know, as a blanket over all kinds of things. And I encourage everyone who, who, who's listening or watching this episode.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (15:25.075)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:52.33)
Is you need to make that conscience decision that I am going to pick up the word of God and dig into it for myself. It's great to go to the Bible study at church. It's great to join other Bible studies. It's great to do devotionals. It's great to do Bible studies, but nothing, nothing compares to.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (16:04.565)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:23.342)
taking the word of God and digging into it to know if what you are hearing is biblically based and sound.

or it's something that the person just is teaching.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (16:43.463)
Yes. When my wife found out that I was also living a different lifestyle, I had two lifestyles, we began counseling, which lasted a year. And God, I tell people, God took his threat of his Holy Spirit and sewed us back together and made us a powerful team for his glory. But I still found myself desiring men. And I remember

Ruth Hovsepian (17:02.423)
Mmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (17:12.859)
As things were slowing down, I was going somewhere. get in the car and this voice says in my head, now that you've known where you've messed up, you can go back into San Diego and do what you used to do. And that scared me right into my pastor's office. And I, I said, I'm not going back. I refuse. I need help. And so I did find, he helped me find a ministry in San Diego that

Ruth Hovsepian (17:28.462)
surprise.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (17:40.187)
at that time was called homosexuals anonymous. And that ministry has gone defunct, which is a sad thing. But the first thing they did is they took me to the Bible and they said, here's what the Bible says about you. And one of those was in Genesis, Chapter one, where it says, let us, God says, let us make man in our image. And he created them male and female.

and said be fruitful he blessed them and said be fruitful and multiply so that told me right away that i was a man created to be with a woman to procreate and so that was the beginning of my healing but throughout my studies in the word there are so many scriptures that tell me just who i am

Ruth Hovsepian (18:25.923)
Yeah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (18:35.247)
One scripture, which is my life scripture, really is in Psalm 40 verses one through three. And it says, I waited patiently for the Lord. And I have to be honest, I wasn't so patient, but it says I waited patiently for the Lord and he inclined to me and heard my cry. He also brought me out of the terrible pit, out of the mire, reclay and set my feet upon a rock and established my steps.

and he has put a new song in my mouth. Praise to our God. Many will see it in fear and trust in the Lord." And when I read that, and there's also Psalm 139, but I read that and I go, God is setting me free. And there was a day in October of 1984, I won't go into all the details, but it was the day that I knew that I was set free.

because God spoke to me and he said, Son, I love you. And at that instant, it was I tell people I was married for 12 years. I was 34 years old. And it's the first time in my life where I knew somebody loved me just for me. And since that day, I have never doubted God's word. I've never doubted what God can do in my life. And one of the things I tell people is

You are special because God doesn't make junk.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:08.374)
You know, I think that we all have issues, whether it's because of a trauma or a situation we've gone through as a young person.

And as, as believers, we need to come alongside each other and, and, encourage each other.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:41.428)
And, support each other and pray for each other on this journey, because we're all, we, we, we are all struggling with, with something and more and more, are hearing stories of sexual trauma, sexual abuse. So, you know, it doesn't matter that there are so many variations of, of, you know, of this sexuality and.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (20:47.231)
Mm-hmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (21:06.428)
absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:10.976)
It's something that it's, it's, it's not a 21st century, you know, crisis that we're having. This has been going on from the beginning of time where we, we, you know, like go back and, and, and, and take a look at all of, you know, I had a guest a while back and she talked about, and I had never thought of this about how Samson was groomed by Delilah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (21:22.814)
Yep.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (21:40.574)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:41.55)
to, you know, because of, you know, sexuality and whatnot. And, and at the end it was to his demise. So, you know, we, we, we look at this and I am looking now at young people and my kids are all grown up. And I think what a time this is to raise children. When the world says everything is acceptable, do, do you do, you know, do whatever you want.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (21:48.649)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (22:11.404)
There are no repercussions to it, but you and I know what those repercussions are. And, and I, I speak for myself this way. I am a new person in Christ. I praise God. I thank God for it, for the grace, for the redemption that I have and for the opportunity to use my past.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (22:18.878)
Yep.

Ruth Hovsepian (22:39.286)
for the good of his kingdom. And it, it just breaks my heart when I see Christians who profess.

their, their faith and I am not one to judge. So I'm very careful when I say this, but are doing a disservice to those who are struggling with sexuality. And we're talking about sexuality today. So that's what it is, but it's for any sin, right? It could be gambling, anything. And instead of shaking these people in love, in love, shaking them.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (22:59.657)
Mm-hmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (23:12.179)
Yes. Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (23:21.172)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (23:22.828)
And saying this is wrong because of this. We are just letting them believe that the world is, is, is a different place. You know, how, what advice do you give to those who are feeling confused or pressured by society's

changing views on sexuality. What advice do you have for them?

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (23:57.503)
Read the word. The, well, the thing I want to say this before I answer that question, the thing I have addressed with some people that I have had communication with, especially since my book came out was if you are a Christian that literally translates to Christ, I am. And so if you're a Christ like person,

Ruth Hovsepian (23:59.574)
Amen.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (24:27.805)
What are you doing living a lifestyle that the word of God says is wrong? And they say, well, that doesn't count today. go, hello, it does. But what I would say to people who are struggling, one, get into a church that teaches the word uncompromised, that teaches Jesus Christ resurrected, and then start reading your word with

Ruth Hovsepian (24:32.206)
Night.

Ruth Hovsepian (24:40.675)
Yeah.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (24:57.415)
the understanding that it applies to you. And when I have a pamphlet that I send, when when I when someone orders a book, I included in the book, it's called Who I Am in Christ. And it just has, I don't know, seventy five or eighty scriptures that say things like I am more than a conqueror. I can do all things through Christ, who has strengthened me and called me according to his purpose. I am I am an heir of the father and a co-heir with Jesus.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:19.246)
you

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (25:27.591)
And just goes on and on. the thing that brought me out of the lifestyle, with the exception, of course, I went through inner healing, deliverance, all kinds of that kind of stuff. But it was letting the word speak to me and say, this is what I say about you. And I'm a vocalist as well. And I love the Book of Psalms because that's what God is talking to his children.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:37.613)
right?

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (25:57.663)
And there's a song I do called I am changed. And it says the old man has passed away and the new man has become new. So Satan take your lies and leave me alone, basically. So what I would say to people Bible to be Bible teaching church, a church that teaches Christ resurrected, read your word and take the word and instead of saying

Ruth Hovsepian (26:14.862)
Alright.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (26:27.831)
instead of saying to the Hebrew say to Charlie, this is for you. You Charlie, you have been set free because the word of God, you know, again, being a musician. Music, the world tells us that music has the power to sue the savage beast. But the word of God tells us music has the power to set the captives free, to bring peace, to bring comfort.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:35.886)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:48.589)
Right?

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (26:56.913)
and to bring gentleness.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:00.47)
Yeah. You know, and I want people to understand that today we're talking about, you know, homosexuality and sexual sin, but the part of that is also pornography. And I know there are Christians who believe pornography is an acceptable tool to improve marriages and relationships. I

do not agree with it because of what the Bible says. And because of my past and what I have seen pornography doing to relationships and to our minds. Pornography is a drug. Pornography is very hard to break. And it has been likened to those who

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (27:46.313)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:57.758)
are addicted to, you know, heroin, to crack. It is hard. I will attest to that. It is very hard. It is hard. And this is where we are, you know, I am a new woman in Christ. It does not erase all the memories. It puts it to rest.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (28:08.125)
Yes, absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:26.496)
It doesn't erase it. And, I just had a guest on and we talked about this as well. And I said, you know, there are sudden things that a smell of something I hear because I, I love music and I have had to, to, for myself, stop listening to certain songs and certain groups.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (28:56.511)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:58.063)
because they are memory triggers of another time, of an event in my life. And I believe that as we get closer to the Lord, as we get rooted in the word of God, as we have this communion with the Holy Spirit, we have discernment of what we need to remove.

It doesn't mean it's bad for everyone. know, Charlie, you can listen to this song, but that song will have a different meaning to me. I need to know that. And I have to be at that place of healing and on my journey, walking with, you know, the Lord to be able to say, can't do that.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (29:26.835)
Mm-hmm.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (29:32.382)
Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (29:42.803)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:44.194)
But I encourage everyone as, unfortunately we wrap up today's episode that sexual sin across the board is equal in the sight of God, whether it's same sex attraction, whether you, you are dealing with a child or with your own, you know, thoughts of trans, you know, I, I feel like this, I feel like that.

Whether you are, you know, a straight, listen, the lingo is, is mind boggling and you are having extra marital affairs. You're having an affair. You're cheating on your spouse. Just say what it is, Ruth. You know, like, hate using flowery words. You're cheating. You're breaking your vows to your spouse.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (30:31.453)
Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (30:38.91)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (30:42.466)
Those are all sins in front of God. Pornography is a sin and it's, it's, it's a sin not only for yourself, but you're also feeding into an industry that has, and this makes for another episode of so many other things, right? Sexual abuse, know, child pornography, trafficking. You're feeding into that world.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (30:44.903)
Yes.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (31:01.407)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:11.126)
It mean you may say it doesn't harm anyone. I'm doing it in the privacy of my home, but it does. You're feeding that, that beast. I tell you, you know, go back, listen to this episode and I'm going to put the verses and the scripture references, Charlie, that you shared right off the top, in the show notes. And if you're interested people, please go and, and read for yourself what Charlie has shared and.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (31:31.647)
Okay.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:41.002)
I am a hundred percent, you know, backing what Charlie has said about getting to know the word of God, getting into it and, knowing what scripture says about what the world thinks is okay. What the church is now starting, you know, with this shift that we are seeing. And if your church is in that shift, it's time to either speak up.

or if you have spoken up, it's time to leave that church. And I don't say that lightly. I don't say that lightly because I believe in staying and fighting for what is right, but there's a time and place where you need to take your family to a safe situation. Charlie, I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart for being on, for shedding light.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (32:14.951)
Mm-hmm. No.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:38.73)
on such an important topic. And this is a topic that can go on for a long time. It has been enlightening. And, and I really thank you for staying true to biblical principles and to the listeners and those who are watching who want to connect with Charlie or get a copy of his book, a life shattered by homosexual homosexuality redeemed

by Jesus's love, love the title, by the way, go to Charlie's website. All of that information will be in the show notes. So don't forget to also subscribe to out of the darkness for more important discussions and encouraging stories until next time stay anchored in truth. Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie Flach. (Flock) (33:34.111)
Thank you. It's been an honor and a privilege for me.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:44.93)
Thank you so much.