Establishing Healthy Boundaries

In this episode of Out of the Darkness, host Ruth Hovsepian and guest Malcolm Hunter delve into the significance of establishing boundaries in various aspects of life, including personal, spiritual, and relational contexts. They discuss how boundaries can protect individuals from negative influences, enhance relationships, and foster a healthier family dynamic. The conversation emphasizes the importance of being rooted in faith and the Word of God to effectively set and maintain these boundaries, particularly in challenging environments such as family and church communities.

Takeaways

• Boundaries are essential for maintaining a healthy and balanced life.
• Establishing boundaries before challenges arise is crucial.
• Boundaries can help individuals grow spiritually and personally.
• Gossip is a significant issue in church communities and should be addressed.
• Prayer should focus on salvation rather than gossip.
• Respecting children and allowing them to make choices is vital for their development.
• Boundaries in family dynamics require open and honest communication.
• Setting boundaries can positively affect relationships with others.
• Being rooted in the Word of God is necessary for establishing effective boundaries.
• Boundaries can lead to a more fulfilling and Christ-like life.

Contact Malcolm Hunter:
Website | https://specialmusicforyourspecialevents.com
Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/malcolmhunter99/
LinkedIn |  https://www.linkedin.com/in/malcolm-hunter-a7444814/

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Transcript

Welcome to another episode of Out of the Darkness. I'm your host, Ruth Hovsepian. Today, we're exploring the importance of establishing boundaries and how they impact both our personal and spiritual lives. Joining me today is a new friend, Malcolm Hunter, a true Renaissance man, musician, composer, former elder, and active member of his church community for over 30 years. Bless you on that. With his wealth of experience in leadership and family life, Malcolm will offer his insights into why boundaries are vital for a healthy and balanced life. Welcome to Out of the Darkness, Malcolm.

Malcolm Hunter (00:35.96)
Thank you so much.

Malcolm Hunter (00:51.128)
Thank you, Ruth, and hello to your listeners.

Ruth Hovsepian (00:53.856)
Well, to start us off, I just shared with you saying how boundaries and the subject of boundaries has come up in my mentorship with others and talking with other people. Can you share why establishing boundaries is so important, especially in today's fast paced world?

Malcolm Hunter (01:16.339)
Hmm, yeah. You know, when we were first, when you mentioned that this is the subject we wanted to talk about, I really started thinking a lot more about it because I have like the current things. And I would just give you one example that came to mind when we were talking about this. You remember when Mike Pence was being interviewed and he said something about going to lunch or going out with

another female, just the two of them. And he was pilloried for saying such a thing. Now in the world, it's like, what's the big deal? But we who are believers understand there is a big deal. In many ways, people can say you're overdoing it, but it's like, hey, that's a date. Wait.

Ruth Hovsepian (01:48.251)
Mmm, yes, yes.

Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:04.095)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (02:11.999)
You have a husband of some other woman and you have a woman, whether she's single or whatever, that's a date. And I remember there were people that really had problems with that, but I was counseled on that. Basically saying, you look, you don't want to give Satan a foothold by doing something where you cannot control the other person's thoughts or feelings.

Ruth Hovsepian (02:14.87)
Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (02:38.47)
And in your cases, you may be vulnerable depending on what happens before that particular thing. So it really comes down to, it's best to put a guardrail for your marriage that you do not go out to lunch alone with another woman. I practiced that throughout my entire career. There was one time I violated it. I was being interviewed for a job. I told my wife, said,

Ruth Hovsepian (02:59.616)
Right?

Malcolm Hunter (03:04.924)
Listen, I don't think it can get this one. But I said, I just want you to know. so she was aware of those situations. In most cases, like I said, it was like we just didn't happen or there would be a group that was formed. But I would tell people that's not going to happen. Rarely did I have to go into it other than I just said my wife and I have an agreement. But just want to just kind of want to go back to that because I think people can relate to that.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:13.728)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (03:35.67)
Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (03:35.739)
Mike was given so much grief, but the reality is as Christians, we're in a spiritual battle. Paul says it in Ephesians 6, you know, we struggle not against flesh and blood, but rulers, authorities, and principalities of this dark world, and spiritual forces of evil. And I think actually I want to give a picture maybe too. If you've ever seen some of the World War II videos,

especially when the Nazis and all the different things that people had to do, you would see what I was amazed with was just how cunning the whole, I guess, thing about warfare, espionage, whatever. It was amazing to me that you have people that bright to do the things they do. So if that happens there, think about spiritual warfare for us.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:29.004)
Yeah.

Malcolm Hunter (04:30.164)
is that deception. And again, when you think about the first guardrail or boundary that was violated was when the Lord said, you know, do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And when that boundary was broken, we have what we have now in terms of a sin-filled world that needs a Savior. And so when you look at that, and I look back on it say, what could Adam and Eve have done?

Ruth Hovsepian (04:41.708)
Hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (04:57.714)
Basically, they said, well, you know, God said we shouldn't eat from that tree, regardless what this man says. And I look at this too, where you think about what God did for all of them, for Adam and Eve. I mean, when Adam was lonely, he said, it's not good for man to be alone. Made him a helpmate, had him name all the angels, gave him the entire world his dominion. There was that one thing. And that interloper came in and said, this

Ruth Hovsepian (05:12.812)
Alright.

Ruth Hovsepian (05:27.83)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (05:27.907)
is the most important thing. At that point, Adam had a choice to make. And even if Eve went ahead and ate, he could have said, wait a minute, know, God said, and that would have been an interesting story, right? And that happened.

Ruth Hovsepian (05:36.949)
Right?

Ruth Hovsepian (05:41.546)
Yeah, it would have made for a very different ending as well. It's interesting, you know, that, that you, you, you, you know, you started it off with this take of boundaries because I think the, the thought is always negative when we talk about boundaries. And I think that, and I really strongly believe that we need to put our boundaries in place before we need them.

Malcolm Hunter (06:05.287)
you set up.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:10.424)
Not when we encounter a difficulty and all of a sudden we're floundering there. And how do I deal with this scenario? And I think that the only way we can do this, and we had a little pre-conversation about it. one of the things we both agreed on is really rooting ourselves in the word of God. And if you are not as a believer rooted in the word of God,

Malcolm Hunter (06:25.607)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (06:33.351)
That's right. That's right.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:39.75)
You cannot really set those boundaries as they apply to you and what you need. I have a different set of boundaries, which are connected to my past, to my past addictions. I know what those, and I hate using this word and I've said this before on my podcast. I hate using the word trigger because it's such a

Malcolm Hunter (06:47.057)
Yep, that's exactly right.

Malcolm Hunter (06:53.521)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (06:58.279)
Hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (07:07.896)
Yeah, I know you mean.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:08.19)
A word that is very loosely used, but I know, let me use another word. What sets me off. Right. So I know what to avoid that that I have put into that. That's my boundary right there. And I know that if I don't put that there, it's a slippery slope. It Satan, you know, has look, we are forgiven. We are.

Malcolm Hunter (07:15.352)
Yes, yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:37.906)
new beings in Christ.

but the memory bank is never cleared, right? So smells and sights and thoughts will trigger us to whether it's a flood of memories and you know, I'm nine years sober and I rarely think about, you know, the day-to-day stuff that I went through, but every so often I hear a song.

Malcolm Hunter (07:44.004)
That's right, that's right.

No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (08:09.187)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (08:09.428)
I have a smell that comes to me, something, and that flood of memories. Imagine what it's like if we don't have boundaries to help us through. Yeah.

Malcolm Hunter (08:20.663)
Yeah, exactly right. Now I'm glad you said that about the positive side because I think, know, even again, let's look at the Ten Commandments. Those were boundaries when you think about it. And if you, and I know Jesus actually did give a positive summary, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might, with all your strength. And then the second was love your neighbor as yourself, which basically is if you divide, you know, the Ten Commandments, I think it's

Ruth Hovsepian (08:32.407)
Mmm. Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (08:50.178)
and six, or five and five, I can't remember which one it was. But that's how it was divided up. And so what you said about sometimes, or maybe often, their boundaries are spoken in terms of a negative way. But I think it really comes down to, especially we as believers, I mean, we're being told in Romans where we are to become like Christ, where we are, you know, that's where we're

We're saved. He's our example. He's more than an example. He's our Savior, and we've been given a helper. And so it really comes down to understanding God has given us, like when you think about the Holy Spirit being a helper, He has given us someone, or, you know, again, God has sometimes have a hard time talking about, know, as if they're distinct, but they are, but at the same time, they're one. But

Ruth Hovsepian (09:19.51)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (09:45.696)
we have been given, we're born again, we're now in dwell with the Holy Spirit, we now have the ability to do the things that we should do. Of course, we have the flesh and our old habits and things like that, which is where Paul went into Romans 7 where he said, know, I do the things I don't want to do, the things I know I should do, I don't do, you know, all of that, but thanks be to God that there's no condemnation in Christ for those who are in Christ Jesus. You know, so

Ruth Hovsepian (09:50.326)
Mm.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:07.819)
Yes?

Malcolm Hunter (10:15.2)
The thing about living the life that we should and having the boundaries is not to earn salvation. It's to actually show the way that we're supposed to have lived from the beginning. And in some ways, the people who've seen, had read something the other day about this, where someone saw a person that they knew when, saw them as they were saved, and they said, whoa, what happened to you? Because they could see the difference.

Ruth Hovsepian (10:42.965)
Hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (10:44.896)
and the fact that this person was now walking the way they should walk, and they were not in their old world. So in that regard, boundaries really basically help you become like Jesus, which is what Paul said in Romans that is really kind of our goal once we have been saved. The sanctification process involves confessing our sin, like it says in 1 John, verse John 1, 9, that he says, if you think about it, says, if we confess our sin,

Ruth Hovsepian (10:51.904)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:09.066)
Right?

Malcolm Hunter (11:14.484)
He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us of unrighteously. It won't happen all instantaneously, but the goal is to become less like ourselves and more like Jesus. So that's what boundaries to me really are. And I'll just kind of add a summary that I put together. And if you have any things just jump in, but I was basically saying the first Adam's inability to respect the first boundary, not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Gnivo.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:20.502)
Right?

Malcolm Hunter (11:43.14)
why sin entered the world, and the world was plunged into darkness, and sin separated us from God. This is why God the Father provided Jesus as the way back to the truth and the life. Even though we're saved when we believe that He ransomed His life in order to save ours, we still need the boundaries like I was just talking about because of sin. And so then He sent the Holy Spirit as our helper to empower us to live the way we were intended to live along that path.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:49.58)
Mmm.

Malcolm Hunter (12:13.408)
And then he provided his word, as we were talking about in our previous conversation, Psalm 119, 105, it says, his word, which is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path to the Lord. And there's a metaphor, there's another metaphor about, you know, again, how sin has put us in darkness, but God has given these boundaries and all of these things to bring light. You know, in 1 Corinthians 13-12, says, for now we see in a mirror dimly,

but then face to face, now I know in part, then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known." So, you know, the separation from God, from sin, when people say, you know, how come we can't see God? Why is it, you know, we don't just see Him just pure? Yeah, well, the reason being sin has been that darkness that we now need the light. And then that's why Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, let your light shine before men.

Ruth Hovsepian (12:47.456)
Hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (12:57.854)
It's fuzzy. Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:08.172)
Right.

Malcolm Hunter (13:11.37)
because really we don't even see, even though we have like a sunny day here in Washington, I see the sun, see the beautiful mountains and the river and things like that. But when it comes to the spiritual world, we're in darkness and we can only have that light when the Holy Spirit comes in us. So the final thing I'll say about this was that the secret to establishing the boundary to me are twofold. Proverbs 3, 5, 6 says, trust in the Lord with all your heart.

do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths." I mean, we really can't rely on our minds. Romans 12, 2 said, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good, acceptable, and perfect. And you know, it's really one of those things where the battle that we have

is do we follow the world or do we follow Christ? And it's really that. I know people say they don't like the fact that you talk in terms of a binary world, but unfortunately, that's the way God made it. There is a binary world. There's good and evil, and there's a path of death and a path of life. So to me, think the thing that boundaries we help do, first of all, is show us who are saved how we should walk.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:14.496)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (14:24.982)
Yeah. Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (14:39.264)
how we should live. And then for those who are observing us, they will basically see that we're okay making those decisions not to do something, or we're okay making those decisions to do something, not follow the world. Because I will tell you, and I'm sure you've seen this too, Ruth, when people see that you have the strength of character to do the thing that no one else is doing, but they know is right, they...

Ruth Hovsepian (15:06.22)
you

Malcolm Hunter (15:07.752)
are attracted to you in terms of saying, okay, how are you doing?

Ruth Hovsepian (15:11.914)
Right. They know, they know where you stand and they know what you are looking at. I want to shift it a little bit. we, you know, we've addressed the boundaries we set between us as believers and the world. Let's take it a little bit into a different area as well, where we said, you know, how can setting boundaries positively affect our relationships with

Malcolm Hunter (15:38.826)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:41.416)
others, especially in a family setting or church setting, because that is a really difficult area, right? And I hear it from young people. How do I set the boundaries with my parents and older ones, with my children, right? Empty nesters talking about this, but all joking aside, how can we

set those boundaries positively.

Malcolm Hunter (16:13.944)
You know, I'm gonna start with the church. You mentioned that. can go to the others, but here's one I want to get to. This is interesting, because this kept coming to mind. I've heard it said, and I've experienced it, that one of the biggest problems in the church is gossip.

All right? I know, and this is the thing. And I'm so glad for the people that God put in my life. I I didn't come up with this on my own, but here's something that I wound up learning to do through the counsel of others and the modeling of others. I remember once somebody came to me and said, I shouldn't tell you this, but I got to the point when I said, then don't tell me. Do not tell me.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:32.652)
Don't get me going.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:45.74)
Mm.

Malcolm Hunter (16:59.465)
If that is the way that this information is, do not tell me. And in fact, don't tell anyone else. Because again, go ahead. gosh. You are.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:01.504)
Yes?

Ruth Hovsepian (17:06.656)
Right, or what about in the name of prayer, right?

Let's pray about sister so-and-so, but it's pure gossip.

Malcolm Hunter (17:19.479)
my gosh, you know something that, you would write too. That's the other four. First, there's the telling someone something you shouldn't tell them. But to your point, the most creative way I've seen that happen, father, so-and-so did this, they shouldn't have done that, and so-and-so found out about it, and they weren't happy about it. I mean, yeah, I remember that happened once, and I...

Ruth Hovsepian (17:26.219)
Yes!

Ruth Hovsepian (17:34.57)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:39.994)
Ugh!

Malcolm Hunter (17:43.679)
I can't remember how I reacted to it, but I remember at some point, like I said, I got to the point where I started stopping people when they would do things. And again, maybe because I had done it myself and I didn't realize what I was doing. Somebody pointed out to me or whatever. So I'm just saying, I'm not perfect with this. I want people to understand. I'm not saying this because I came out of the womb like this. No, I went through the embarrassing times of like being called out. That's right. That's right. And so, no, that's the thing. Even in prayer, prayer to me,

Ruth Hovsepian (17:49.546)
Yes. Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (18:02.667)
Yeah.

The transformation, yes.

Malcolm Hunter (18:13.859)
is if you're not talking about someone's salvation, yeah, there are medical things or whatever like that, but I said this to a friend of mine the other day—I won't say his name, but he may know if he sees this—I remember saying that I really appreciated the fact that whenever his wife prayed for their children, whether she began with it or ended with it, she would always say, and may they become Christ followers, know, whatever. And to me, I'm going,

Ruth Hovsepian (18:40.704)
Yes, amen.

Malcolm Hunter (18:43.335)
Like someone said, you can pray, ask somebody to pray for your second cousin's left toe or whatever like that. But the real question is, is your second cousin saved? Because like Jesus said, what is it profit and man to… If you lose a member and you're into the kingdom, but if you let that member cause you the sin, your whole body goes… It's better to lose a member than your whole body to go to sin. So,

Ruth Hovsepian (19:03.627)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:11.488)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (19:13.057)
To me it's like when I hear people praying for people, yeah, like you said, if the gossip is what's coming out, I mean, we haven't had it lately, but I will basically say this is not appropriate. But I will do it in a way that I pull them aside, not embarrass them. But yeah, to your point, it's like, yeah, we need to be sure that prayer is not a creative mechanism for spreading gossip.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:30.572)
That's right.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:37.376)
Right. The other thing I use is to kind of stop people is that's not my story to tell or your story to tell. That's that person's story to tell. Especially if I know what's happening and I know that that person does not want it out there. there is a way to, stop the, gossip at least in front of me. I don't want that. Yeah.

Malcolm Hunter (19:45.879)
That's right.

Malcolm Hunter (19:49.973)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Malcolm Hunter (20:02.839)
Yeah. And I think to your point with this thing, the positive thing about this is that no, with the strength of character, I mean, this to me falls under letting your yes be yes and your no be no. Because often too in the church, or I'm supposed to speak for the church, I'm sorry to do this, but it's like we can say, you know, someone says we need someone to do X. And for some reason, we find it hard to say no to something because we want to be

Ruth Hovsepian (20:14.561)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (20:32.791)
We think being a good Christian is like saying yes to everything. But you know something? This is where an important boundary is that it's best to say, first of all, like Jesus said, building a house. You gotta consider, do you have everything here to build this house? Otherwise, when people see a half-built house, that's just paraphrase what he said, they will mock you basically. So it still comes down to, in those situations, we do have to consider if what I'm about to say here,

whether it's gossip or whether it's a commitment. If I see that I can't, I have to think about, if I can't do it, it's best to say no now so they can move on versus give them a yes and later come back and say, I really can't do this.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:04.876)
Hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:17.904)
Yeah, yeah, letting them down in that way. What about with family? Because that's a really difficult one. You know, setting setting boundaries and I know this is a big subject, but how you know, just to give some guidance to the listeners as and those who are watching. How do we set boundaries that are Christ like and and you know, because you know, sometimes I've had people say, you know,

Malcolm Hunter (21:30.913)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (21:35.361)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:47.66)
I, I've, have these boundaries because of whatever circumstances from the past. And, and now they're telling me that's not Christ-like I'm selfish. that's, know, whatever the case may be. What is your take on that?

Malcolm Hunter (21:51.93)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (22:03.567)
You know, boy, the first thing I would really say that someone needs to do, okay, because again, some of the things, as you said about family, I've heard about people who get married and someone's mother-in-law, you know, just it's really kind of like, you know what I mean? The ruling the roofs. And you're going, who am I married to? You know, my wife or, you know, and stuff like that, or vice versa. And you really, think someone said this, again, just like,

Ruth Hovsepian (22:23.498)
Yep.

Yeah, that's right.

Malcolm Hunter (22:34.051)
you know, do unto others as you have them do unto you. And then again, being believers, you know, know the truth, the truth will set you free. And again, following Jesus, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Okay, I'm saying that about truth because it's like this. We can respect someone, or we can tell them, I respect you enough to want to tell you the truth in that regard. And then I will use an example before I give the other thing. I think about Jonathan and his father, Saul.

Ruth Hovsepian (22:54.86)
Mm.

Malcolm Hunter (23:03.126)
and his friendship with David. You notice that as much as Saul was trying to kill David, did you notice that Jonathan never dishonored his father? He never did. And so even the commandment that says honor your mother and father. So keeping those things in mind, if we have a situation where we have to talk to a mother-in-law or our own parents about something, number one, we basically can

in so many words say, you know, I honor you as my mother and father, but now I've established my own home. And therefore, this is now, as the Lord says, we leave our families and we leave to our spouses. In this regard, you know, now you have to respect me as a new home owner, basically, and we have to establish our own rules. So in this regard, know, mom or dad,

Ruth Hovsepian (23:41.846)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (23:55.948)
That's right.

Malcolm Hunter (24:02.828)
You know, I say this only because, you, you know, I'm sure it has to go through the same thing. But, you know, we're, we're sensing that we're not able to establish our own home as a result of some of the things that are going on. But you got to have that conversation. And there was a book that was written by someone, caring enough to confront was, I think was the title. And there was another, can't remember, but basically comes down to this.

Some family dynamics are very difficult. Let's just be honest about this. We can say that, we just do this and it's done. Again, I look at Jonathan and Saul. Think about this. That's really hard. he was still able, yeah, he was still able to honor his father. we have to be willing to realize something. First of all, if we're believers, we have to remember that ultimately we are all sons of God who are believers.

Ruth Hovsepian (24:34.824)
Mm-hmm. yeah

Ruth Hovsepian (24:45.228)
Yeah, that's a great example. Yep.

Malcolm Hunter (25:01.151)
And therefore, despite the fact, and of course, God tells us to honor our parents, but in many cases, we're kind of on a level playing field in terms of being children of God. In that regard, whether they're believers, our parents or whomever that's, you know, are there or not, we still honor them. But especially if they're believers, then we can talk in a different way, where it's like, okay, because of our covenant with the Lord,

and our salvation and being children of God adopted into his family, we need to respect the roles that we have as husband and wife, things like that. So it really comes down to, it really does help to, number one, realize that whether somebody's a believer or an unbeliever, we're still in the image of God. In that regard, we deserve to be, we have dignity.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:37.484)
Mm, yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (25:55.882)
Right.

Malcolm Hunter (25:56.766)
being a member of God. And therefore, we can speak with respect. Like I said, I know there are some family dynamics that will make this difficult for some others, but this is where we say if we lack wisdom, as James 1.5 says, know, ask God who gives without rebuking you, and if he gives it generously, we need to not lean on our understanding. In that case, we need to say, Lord, you know how tough this is going to be. You know how my dad is, or you know my mother is.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:25.501)
yeah.

Malcolm Hunter (26:26.429)
you know, give me something. And you know something? I've learned this in my own marriage as we talk about family. And my wife, I think I've told her this, so it's not something new, but I said, I've noticed that whenever I pray to the Lord when we're having a disagreement, I say, okay, am I wrong here? And he would show me. And if not, it's, know, then I say, okay, then Lord, speak to my wife, you know, or speak to me. I've noticed Ruth, he has never not answered.

And that was to me one of those secrets of how does marriage work with God being at the top and being the triangle. That's how it works. I've noticed it when I said, when there's a disagreement and we have to again establish a boundary, He has never let me down. So He would do that with parents as well.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:03.164)
Mm. Yep.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:13.313)
Right.

Yeah, and I look at it the other way as well because sometimes I have parents who come to me and ask me, you know, how to deal with their children, you know, and I always say, yes, and I'm talking to believers, you know, it's a little bit of a different dynamic there. But as believers, are, you know, we are privileged to have our children with us for a short period of time. And

Malcolm Hunter (27:25.627)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (27:32.231)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:44.544)
we raise our children in the way of the Lord and we pray on them and we never stop praying about our children. But as Christian parents, as believers, we do a disservice to our young people when we become helicopter parents over them and do not allow our children at a young age to learn how to make decisions and learn how

Malcolm Hunter (28:02.981)
Mm-hmm. Very good.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:13.874)
what choices they make have what ramifications. And it can start as easy, know, very simple things at a young age. It's just to learn how to make decisions. And my example is when my kids were little, they could wear whatever they want, but they didn't. They wore what I want. How I did that was Sunday mornings. mean, school was easy. They were in uniform.

Malcolm Hunter (28:34.096)
Ha ha ha.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:40.298)
But Sunday morning church, I would say to them, what do you want to wear? I would pull out two dresses for the girls. Do you want this dress or do you want this dress? Look, Malcolm, it was, I controlled the narrative so they couldn't wear what, you know, like that, the sandbox dirty clothes, but they yet felt that that achievement of making a choice and learning how to make choices. And that...

Malcolm Hunter (29:08.838)
That's right.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:09.224)
when they were really little, right? So they felt, look what I'm wearing. As they got older, they had to learn how to make choices, whether they were going to someone's birthday party or not. I had already decided if they could or could not go, but it was up to them to make a choice. Did they want to go on a, and a prime example is what happened to my son. I had planned a family outing for my children and for myself, and he was invited to a birthday party.

Malcolm Hunter (29:38.726)
Mm-hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:39.026)
And I said to him, it's up to you, because it really was, right? He was, know, in his teens and old enough to make that decision without affecting anything. And he decided to go to the birthday party. Well, lo and behold, after the birthday party, he said, mom, why didn't you make me come with you guys? You guys had such a great time without me. Now that was a learning point for him, right? How to make

Malcolm Hunter (29:52.952)
Hmm.

Malcolm Hunter (30:04.574)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You all right?

Ruth Hovsepian (30:07.658)
the right decision. And I came out being the good mom, well, for a while until he realized that, mom, you know, like mom had, you know, a nace up her sleeve and she tricked me into this and it was a learning experience. But I think, you know, listen, I wasn't a perfect parent. say in spite of me, yeah, in spite of us, our children have turned out the way they have and I have great children. All to say,

Malcolm Hunter (30:18.372)
Hahaha

Malcolm Hunter (30:26.175)
Neither of us were exactly.

Ruth Hovsepian (30:36.676)
We need to learn how to respect and honor our children at every stage of their lives. Because I've come to understand by the time that they are teenagers, those formative years have already put a foundation of how they're going to make decisions and choices. Now you're just compounding on that. You know, you're building on that foundation and we can't

Malcolm Hunter (30:41.284)
Mm-hmm. Ooh.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:05.984)
wait until they are teenagers to suddenly pull out this card and say, I'm your mom or your dad, we're your parents, or if you live under my roof, this, you know, we need to build that relationship, those boundaries.

Malcolm Hunter (31:22.668)
You know, that is a good example. Thanks for doing that. And this made me think of this in some way, like you said, in terms of your children. Here was the thing that my wife and I did. I even planned on doing this. don't think somehow it came up. You know how we say about, let's see, the Easter bunny, Santa Claus.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:49.354)
Hmm. Yep. Now I see where you're going.

Malcolm Hunter (31:51.522)
the tooth fairy, the stork, right, right, right? I didn't even plan on this. Really, when I was thinking, when I was single, about being a parent, I did not think about this at all. But when you marry a believer and you're trying to do the right thing, I remember the first time we were having Christmas and our kids were old enough to kind of know what was going on. My wife and I had a conversation and we said, you know something?

Ruth Hovsepian (32:02.475)
Hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:09.75)
Right.

Malcolm Hunter (32:22.611)
I don't know if we really need to do the Santa Claus thing. However, we don't want our kids to be weird. you know I mean? You know what mean? So it came down. So we did this. We said, we told them this in essence. know, Christmas is a time where many things are being celebrated. The one our family focuses on is the birth of Jesus. And so therefore, when we're giving gifts,

Ruth Hovsepian (32:26.636)
Mm.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:31.212)
I like that. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I hear you.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:49.302)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (32:52.041)
or doing the trees, all of this is our celebration of Jesus' birthday. God gave us Jesus as a gift, and we give gifts to each other. However, there will be people who will, you know, the Santa Claus thing. And we also said, you know, we understand there was a story about who, you know, how Santa Claus came to be. Then we told them about that. So I said, you know, enjoy the season, everything that comes with it, understanding that the big celebration

Ruth Hovsepian (33:20.896)
Yes.

Malcolm Hunter (33:21.44)
that's going on is about the greatest gift God ever gave to mankind. And therefore, with that, we never had a Christmas where they were thinking, is Santa Claus coming? Never did. But you know something? My kids knew the other part. I don't think they ever told any of their other friends, but we said, we know there are other kids that may do this. So I'm just saying it was one of those things where we decided at an early age,

Ruth Hovsepian (33:26.23)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:34.815)
Right.

Malcolm Hunter (33:50.131)
that we wanted them to trust us. And we want to respect them enough to tell them what is important here. And so, no, to your things that you said, it really does come down as far as making decisions or whatever. We wanted to give them a basis for realizing, yeah, we're not here to run your lives, but we're here to tell you the truth when you need to know something, whether you ask us or not.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:53.578)
Yeah.

Ruth Hovsepian (34:15.468)
Mm.

Malcolm Hunter (34:15.504)
And so that to us was like one of the best things I think we did in terms of how do we prepare kids for being in a culture as believers without them being discipled by the culture? We disciple them by Christmas through Christ and His Son and the Holy Spirit, not by Santa Claus, the elves, and the reindeer.

Ruth Hovsepian (34:41.354)
It all comes down to as believers being rooted in Christ and being rooted in the word of God. That's what it really comes down to. Malcolm, it's been great. The time has flown by. know you have to come back. There's really so much more to discuss. I would love to hear how you and your wife raised your children. There's so much to talk about.

Malcolm Hunter (34:46.653)
Exactly.

Malcolm Hunter (34:50.905)
It does.

Malcolm Hunter (34:54.653)
no! Thank you. There really is.

Malcolm Hunter (35:06.621)
There is. Thank you.

Ruth Hovsepian (35:08.108)
But I thank you, Malcolm, for sharing your wisdom on boundaries and how they can truly change the way we live, whether in the world, in our church, in our families. For our listeners who want to connect with Malcolm or learn more about his work, visit his website, check out the show notes for his contact information. And as well, please make sure to subscribe to Out of the Darkness for more conversations like this. And until next time,

Malcolm Hunter (35:15.581)
but it can.

Ruth Hovsepian (35:37.43)
Continue seeking the light that our Lord and Savior has given us and sharing it with others. I thank you all.

Malcolm Hunter (35:46.791)
Thank you, Ruth. Thank you to your listeners as well.

Ruth Hovsepian (35:52.748)
Good grief, it's like 35 minutes into our conversation.

Malcolm Hunter (35:55.71)
my gosh.