Life After a Child Comes Out as Transgender

Debbie McNinch shares her experience of navigating life after her son came out as transgender with Ruth Hovsepian. She discusses the initial shock and the wrestling of her faith that followed. Debbie emphasizes the importance of loving and affirming her child while staying true to her faith. She talks about the challenges of dealing with societal judgment and finding her stance within the church. 

Ruth highlights the need for parents to love their children unconditionally while not condoning their actions. They discuss the importance of understanding that sin comes in many forms and that focusing on the state of one's heart and personal relationship with God is essential. In this conversation, 

Ruth and Debra discuss the struggles and challenges of parenting children who have left their faith. They emphasize the importance of prayer, worship, community, and declaring God's promises. They encourage parents to be vulnerable and share their struggles with others rather than pretend everything is perfect. The conversation concludes with a reminder to pursue our children in the spirit realm and refuse to listen to the world's negative messages.

Takeaways

• Navigating life after a child comes out as transgender can be challenging and requires wrestling with one's faith.
• Parents should strive to love and affirm their children while staying true to their faith and not condoning their actions.
• Societal judgment and the pressure to conform to certain beliefs within the church can add to the difficulties parents face in these situations.
• Understanding that sin comes in many forms and focusing on the state of one's heart and personal relationship with God is crucial. Prayer and worship are powerful tools in parenting children who have walked away from their faith.
• Building a community of support and prayer is essential for parents struggling.
• Parents should be vulnerable and share their struggles with others rather than pretending everything is perfect.
• Declaring God's promises and speaking life over our children can make a difference in their lives.
• Parents should pursue their children in the spirit realm and refuse to listen to the negative messages of the world.

https://www.battlecrymoms.com/
Website | debbiemcninch.com
Instagram | battlecrymoms
Facebook  | debbiemcninch

✰ SOCIALS ✰
✔Website - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/
✔Podcast - https://outofthedarknesswithruthhovsepian.buzzsprout.com/
✔Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ruthhovsepian/
✔Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ModernDayRuthRedeemed/
✔LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthhovsepian/
✔Speaking - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/speaking
✔Books - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/booksruthhovsepian

✰ BUSINESS EMAIL ✰
info@ruthhovsepian.com

✰ MUSIC ✰
hot music - winning-elevation

Transcript

Ruth Hovsepian (00:01.186)
Welcome to Out of the Darkness, where we explore the challenges and victories of faith, family, and overcoming life's toughest battles. I'm your host, Ruth Hovsepian and today we are discussing what to do when you didn't plan on having a prodigal Our guest today is Debbie McNinch, the founder of Battle Cry Mom. And in June 2017, Debbie's life was turned upside down.

when her son announced he was transgender. Through this challenging time, Debbie made a promise to herself to share her family struggles, to offer hope to others, to build a supportive community for moms like herself, and to never stop believing in God's miracles. Debbie, thank you so much for being here today.

Debra McNinch (00:55.221)
Thank you for having me. And thank you for having this important conversation.

Ruth Hovsepian (00:59.292)
It is important. So, you know, I, I really want to make sure that we kind of give everyone a little bit of a backstory and talk about, tell us actually, how did you deal in those initial days and weeks after your son spoke to you and announced to you, how do you begin?

to navigate life after

Debra McNinch (01:27.561)
That's a great question. So prior to this announcement, I have three kids and I thought we had this perfect little kind of Christian family. I had kind of, you know, all of our kids had graduated from school and had done college and kind of were all on their own. And I was just kind of sitting back. I always kind of liked to picture. had this Malibu Barbie dream house sitting on the beach, just looking at the waves ready for like what, you know, what was the next

in our journey. And I just assume that was grandkids and traveling the world and doing all of these things. And little did I know that that phone call would change everything. And I like to just think of that famous picture from the Thailand tsunami back many years ago where all the people were on the beach just having a great day and they didn't know that there was this wave out in the ocean getting ready to hit them and change everything. And that's what it felt like for me when this phone call came in.

changed in that moment. And I had to figure out all that was left was the foundation that I had. And I had to figure out what my foundation, what my life, what my house was built on. Was it built on the rock of Jesus Christ? Or was it built on the world and was it going to never be rebuilt like I, you know, what I wanted? And so those initial moments, the very, very first thing I remembered the Lord saying to me was that it is my job to love my

It was his job to save him and so what? Transpired over the days and the weeks and the months that came was the wrestling of my faith And so when we talk today, I always just like to say this is my story And so this isn't really his story. This isn't anybody else's story This is what I had to wrestle with when this announcement came because my life changed and I didn't realize it was going to change quite as much as it did and so

It's just important to note, I think, that every one of us has some sort of wave that has come into their life. Nobody has these perfect little lives we like to believe in. So it's what you do with it after you feel like you got knocked out. That's what's important. And so I found out that my foundation was built on Jesus Christ and that it was strong. And I still had a lot of ugliness in me though that I really had to work on getting out. And I had to work through things like jealousy.

Debra McNinch (03:57.103)
shame and I had to work through just pain and all kinds of questions. And so the first several months, you know, it was hard to get out of bed at times to face what my life looked like. And, you know, it really took the Lord just speaking to me. and I knew kind of like you said, in the opening that I promised myself that I, if I could ever find a way out of the pain, I would speak about this because I felt

alone at that time and I didn't think there was anybody else going through anything like I was and that's a lie from Satan as well. You are not alone. There are other people going through what you're going through and I'm just so thankful that the Lord has helped me build Battle Cry Moms and it's a connection with other people going through what I am.

Ruth Hovsepian (04:47.362)
There is there's so much that you said that I'd love to address. And one of the things that I think is really important, and this is something that I've had to to come to terms in my own life. And one of them is the thing how other people perceive us

how they look at us and how they judge us, meaning you and me. And I know I grew up, and again, you know, I think as parents, we do the utmost of our abilities to raise our children in the way that we believe is the right way. Having said that, when I was young and growing

Whenever something happened or if I did something that was not right or unacceptable, I was told, what will people say? You, you know, we are a Christian family, we're family leadership. And I have come to understand because I had that same mentality and I'm not saying that they, you know, the family, they did what they, what

Debra McNinch (05:55.231)
Mm -hmm.

Great.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:12.416)
they really and truly believed was right. did, you know, they, they believe this was the right way to do it. So no judgment on them. I'm just saying that this is not where we're coming from from what you said and what I also have experienced. I have come to understand a couple of things and that is it's not about us when we have children.

Debra McNinch (06:14.921)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (06:40.136)
that are not walking in the faith. And I think that it is difficult as a mother, and I want you to talk about this a little bit more, but I know as you that we want this, we have an image of what our family looks like. And I too have children

Debra McNinch (06:43.413)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:10.166)
You know, at one time made a profession and maybe are not walking that walk anymore. And in the beginning, it really affected me when I went to church and I no longer saw my children in church. It affected me. And I really had to pray about this and say, Lord, what about this is affecting me? All right.

Debra McNinch (07:36.565)
Right, right.

Ruth Hovsepian (07:39.262)
And I realized as I should be praying for my children's soul, not for appearances and, a sin. I also had to come to understand, and that was through my journey that a sin is a sin, no matter what our children are doing, because I had, I was walking in darkness as an addict

Debra McNinch (07:49.513)
Right. That's good.

Debra McNinch (07:58.869)
Right. Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (08:08.382)
with the things that I had to deal with. And I had people come at me about certain things, but not others, because certain sins are more obvious than others. So these are things that as parents, we need to understand. We need to pray, I believe. We need to pray for our children.

Debra McNinch (08:23.305)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (08:37.842)
but we cannot manage their life and we cannot save them from mistakes and sins. And that is a hard one. That is like a savior complex that we have as parents. I don't know. It's a balance that we have to find each of us, right?

Debra McNinch (08:46.199)
Right, right, right.

Debra McNinch (09:06.247)
It's hard. mean, you I always joke, God gave us these children and it's our job to raise them and we've protected them. you know, we, our identity has become being their mother. And then when something changes, all of a sudden is my, what is my identity is kind of what I found myself saying. And I know at the beginning I had, I was full of shame and it wasn't shame for my child in this decision. I was never shameful of his decision. That was

Ruth Hovsepian (09:17.634)
That's it.

Debra McNinch (09:36.123)
shame was I thought people were looking at me and saying, I thought you were a good Christian family. What happened? You obviously weren't as good a Christian as you thought you were. You weren't portraying, you you doing all these things, but that's not really who you were. And I felt like the whole world was looking at me. And like I had one half looking to see if I would accept this and not bad an eye. And I had the other half, I felt like looking at me saying, am I going to condemn this? And, know, that's kind of where I found myself, not just in my personal

Ruth Hovsepian (09:38.689)
Mm.

Debra McNinch (10:06.017)
life, but I also found myself when it came to the church, you know, like the capital C church and I found myself just figuring out like as I went through this that there were two doors really in the church and I was either and I felt like the world was saying you have to pick a door door a

Ruth Hovsepian (10:11.532)
Yep.

Debra McNinch (10:26.521)
you know said this is a sin and that you have to turn him out and you have to not talk to him and you have to just let him do his thing and you know not have communication because this is a sin and this is going to drag you down and you know door two over here was like no we're going to affirm this this is fine god loves him and you know and so i found myself just like battling this middle ground of where do i stand and i had to ask myself questions if i love my child does that mean i'm going to hell you know

Ruth Hovsepian (10:47.488)
The two extremes. Yeah.

Debra McNinch (10:56.435)
I don't affirm him does that mean I don't love him? And it was just this constant battle of there's no one to ask these questions to. There's no one because it seems like church kind of didn't have the answers that I needed for these hard questions that I was asking. And so I finally just decided that I was going to have to create a door number three. And door number three was this door that I was going to walk through that said I cannot hate my child to heaven. But at the same time I cannot

him straight to hell. And so I was going to love him and affirm that he was my child and that there was nothing that was ever going to come in between me and my child and my love for him. But at the same time, I wasn't going to not tell him the truth and the truth of God's word, because that is what I built my life on. And I refused to compromise on that message. And so who knew that the person I loved the most was going to be somebody that the church told me I had to hate. And it was hard to figure out

where I stood.

Ruth Hovsepian (11:57.938)
I agree with you. You know, I've, I've said this over and over again, and I believe a sin is a sin. Whether your child is, you know, a liar, a thief, promiscuous, comes out to you as a homosexual transgender. We love our children. We show them unconditional love. We, we become, we should be.

Debra McNinch (12:21.938)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (12:26.826)
their go -to that they feel that they can come to us and talk to us. Yet they should know if we agree or not with their choices. And I know, you know, there was a situation in one of my children's lives and they said, I know you're not going to agree with this, but I need to tell you. And to me in a way that was a consolation that

Debra McNinch (12:39.551)
Right.

Debra McNinch (12:49.695)
Right. Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (12:55.808)
They knew where I stood in my beliefs. Right. And, and, and that I now had a decision to make. And my decision was unconditionally loving my child, but them knowing what I felt now that does not condone behavior that does not condone their actions. But we also have to understand as parents that they are.

Debra McNinch (12:57.577)
Right, right, deep down they knew.

Debra McNinch (13:16.586)
Great.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:24.044)
adults. Now we're talking about adult situations. I'm not talking about a seven year old, you know, doing things. I think those are two different conversations, but when an adult child comes and says whatever they say.

Debra McNinch (13:25.087)
Right. Right. Right.

Debra McNinch (13:33.34)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (13:41.558)
We need to know where we stand in our own faith, right? Where we stand in our understanding of scripture so that we can respond to it. I had one of my children and I don't even know what the context of our conversation was, but they had said to me or asked me, it could have even been one of my children in love.

who asked me this, I don't remember, but the question was, what would you have done if one of us had come to you and said we were gay or one of these things? And I said, well, I would love you because you are my child. I would not condone your actions because it's sinful in the sight of God. And I would do the same thing if you came and said to me,

that you were cheating on your taxes or you were doing whatever, it would be my same reaction. And I warn parents who say to me, who come to me and ask me, how do I react to my child who has come out to me and they're gay? I mean, are they not your child? I don't get it. Still your child?

Debra McNinch (14:39.892)
So long.

Debra McNinch (15:01.961)
Right. You're still your child.

Ruth Hovsepian (15:07.252)
You love your child and the same way you would react to any. Now here's a caveat I have with that. If that child professes that their faith, if they have made a commitment to the Lord and they are struggling with gender dysphoria, whatever you want to call it, whatever the lingo is, because there's so much lingo out there. I think it's a different conversation.

where I would, I would do that for, again, for any instance. I, and I'm careful because I, I don't compartmentalize sins. So whatever sin they were living in, I would still have the same conversation. If you are professing faith, if Jesus is your Christ and savior, and you are doing this sin,

Debra McNinch (15:36.117)
Absolutely.

Debra McNinch (15:56.094)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:04.202)
You need to revisit your understanding of what the scripture says. Amen.

Debra McNinch (16:08.501)
Absolutely, absolutely. There's lost and found. That's what I always say. There's not levels. Sometimes I feel like we're at a level 10 because of how crazy things get sometimes, but there's not. And I've just come to kind of realize what you've said just in my own journey with just understanding God and His love. And these are things I would not have ever had my child not come out.

Ruth Hovsepian (16:12.361)
Yes!

Exactly!

Ruth Hovsepian (16:20.82)
Yes!

Debra McNinch (16:34.727)
I have not, I mean, I've learned so many things I would not have learned had I not had to walk through this. And that's one of them that, you know, God, you know, it's very easy. The gospel is easy. It's, you know, this is what Jesus has done is he's the son of God. Do you accept the sacrifice? Do you accept his life? You know, we put all these extra little things on it. And I always say my child being transgender, that's not what has separated him from God. It's that he that he

Ruth Hovsepian (16:38.892)
Mm -hmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:03.062)
Guess.

Debra McNinch (17:04.671)
confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that he's our Savior. You know those are the things that we can't get lost in the message of the gospel because of our man -made criteria that we have brought. We all struggle with sin. Some of our sin is on the outside.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:15.167)
Yeah.

Debra McNinch (17:20.677)
some of it is hidden on the inside. And I think we have to remember that sometimes the things we see on the outside, you know, I'm struggling with a lot on inside me that people will never see. And so they may think I'm real put together and I'm this great Christian because they don't see my struggles.

Ruth Hovsepian (17:36.958)
I agree. I agree a hundred percent. And we have seen that in society in the, you know, in the, church where we, and we see that with social media and with churches being on social media, with politics coming into all of this as well, where we see that certain sins are targeted and become spokesperson.

Debra McNinch (17:44.841)
Yes. Yes.

Debra McNinch (17:51.562)
Right.

Debra McNinch (17:56.746)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (18:03.209)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (18:07.604)
Okay. So, you know, some of them are, you know, it's a homosexual homosexuality or sexual sin. Divorce is another big one that people tend to, to target. And yet I, I say, you know, sin comes in many forms. The one that cannot handle their temperament.

Debra McNinch (18:17.641)
Right.

Debra McNinch (18:29.727)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (18:34.538)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (18:34.752)
the one who cheats on their boss because they're late every day. They take all these breaks every day. The one that cheats on his taxes. The one who cheats on his wife, he's in a heterosexual marriage, a God -ordained marriage, but he cheats on his wife, how? Because he consumes pornography.

Debra McNinch (18:44.115)
Right. Right.

Debra McNinch (18:57.653)
Right, absolutely, 100%.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:01.184)
I'm sorry, are, or the woman or man that sits at the back of the church and gossips all day about everyone else's sins in the name of prayer.

Debra McNinch (19:14.153)
Right, right. You know, and it says in Proverbs, you know, it lists the sixth sin, seven, if you will. It says, you know, and I always laugh that the sexual sin didn't make the top seven. You know, we talk about pride and so many other things, but that is the one that it's just easy to pick on because it's out there. It's very visual and it's just easy to, because I don't struggle with that. I don't struggle with that. And so it's easy for me to call that out because it's not my struggle.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:27.455)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:31.85)
It's visual, right? We see it.

Ruth Hovsepian (19:41.152)
Right. Right. We always say, I don't understand why they can't, you what I mean? If that's not something you struggle with, but I, I don't understand how you are a grumpy face person who picks on other people all the time. I don't, you know, so I think what I really want to get across to people is what is the state of your heart?

Debra McNinch (20:02.035)
Right.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:09.742)
What is the state of your relationship, your personal relationship with your Lord and savior? And, and that, and, if you are hearing the Holy spirit and it really does come down to your relationship, you know, with the Lord and do you make the time to hear the Holy spirit in your life? And, and as parents,

Debra McNinch (20:17.191)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (20:38.996)
It's a struggle. Look, it's not easy. I have, I have my moments where I cry for my, my, you know, my protocols and I say, Lord, I want them to be in your, in your fold. I want them to be part of the family. I want to be united with them, reunited with them one day in eternity. And that is my prayer.

Debra McNinch (20:47.285)
Absolutely.

Debra McNinch (21:03.573)
Absolutely.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:08.544)
You know, Debbie, that's all I care about. That's all I

Debra McNinch (21:11.251)
That's all we care about every day. I wake up with hell on my mind every single day.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:16.114)
Yes, yes. And I pray for that. don't, I don't pray

Ruth Hovsepian (21:24.798)
Let me say what I pray for. I pray that they will one day open their hearts, that the Lord will soften their hearts, their hearts will soften, and they will come back to the fold, just like the prodigal did, just like I did. Amen. And I think that's where grace comes in. If I was welcomed back to the fold.

Debra McNinch (21:34.047)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (21:38.985)
Yes, that's me. Just like I did. Just like I did. Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (21:54.978)
Goodness. These are tears of joy, not sadness, you know? If I was welcomed back to the fold with open arms, I need to be as so grace, you know, give grace to my own and say, I love you and the Lord loves you and he is waiting on

Debra McNinch (21:56.083)
How much greater? Yes. absolutely.

Debra McNinch (22:06.643)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (22:21.417)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (22:21.984)
And that's all we can, that is my advice to parents. You know, when, when I'm asked, what do I do? And, you know, and whatever I just say, pray on your children day and night, bring them to the Lord. And that is all you can do.

Debra McNinch (22:41.605)
Absolutely. So when I first started kind of figuring out what my voice was going to be through all of this, I knew right away I was going to need a battle plan because I recognized I was in a war. And so I couldn't just wake up and be like, well, I'm just going to pray for my kid today. I had to have a plan. I had to have a solid plan to get through to pray for my kid. And I came up, the Lord gave me just five steps and they're so easy, but they're just so powerful when we do them. Number

Ruth Hovsepian (22:51.564)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (23:01.867)
Right.

Debra McNinch (23:11.461)
I put it in my phone. So when my practical calls that rolls across the screen, you know, I put it, I put it everywhere. I put it in my card. I printed out on little cards and if people ask me how

Debra McNinch (23:41.355)
I pray for your family, I hand them that card and say pray this first over my child. So that's one we do the work to we worship You know our worship is a sacrifice and if you think about the widow's might and when she gave her her two minutes You know two mites that and she gave all she had you know And it's so easy when we go to church if we have a perfect family if everything is going great It's so easy to worship. It's so easy to praise God. It's so easy to be thankful but when everything you love and and you thought you would have a

Ruth Hovsepian (23:43.339)
Right?

Ruth Hovsepian (23:48.332)
Yeah.

Debra McNinch (24:11.218)
been stripped from you and you have nothing left. You you learn to worship out of poverty. You learn to come to Lord with an empty heart saying that everything I have is yours, Lord, and I just worship you from that. I worship you because of who you are, not because of my perfect little family that I have. And so we worship in our group. That's the second step. Third is prayer. And we have a list of things I pray all the time. And we pray just crazy things like God would just remove anybody from their lives

are whispering something in their ear. We pray for their will to be broken and that they would be filled with the Holy Spirit. We pray for just any plans that they have would be just thrown away and that God would intervene and just put people in their path to point them to him. So we have lists in my mom's group of so many things that we pray. If you don't know what to pray, we have a list of things that can help get you started with that. Four, we declare God's

promises. We declare God's promise. His book, His word is full of His promises and we don't have to wonder what those are because they're written out for us and we can declare God's promises over our families. And lastly, His community. You cannot fight this battle alone. And we often just quote the verse about Moses and Aaron and her. And when Moses was winning the battle, when he had his arms up, but then he would become weary and he put his arms down and he had two friends

came along beside him to hold his arms up. And that's what we do for each other in our moms group. And if you don't have somebody with you in your life, join us, join our Battle Cry moms because you have to have a community that's going to pray with you and believe with you for your child to come home. You have to, I'd like to call them our mat carriers. You know, it took four or five people to get the paralyzed man down before Jesus. I need friends that are gonna help me lower my child down before the Lord.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:07.618)
Yeah, great example. I love that example of the mat carriers. I think that's that's a great example. Yeah. I agree. I, I think that having a plan is how we, we become successful, you know, in what we do. And we need to remember

Debra McNinch (26:14.152)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (26:29.406)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (26:35.432)
Again, it's not about us. It's it's about our child or grandchild or niece, nephew. Doesn't matter that child in our church. I think that this is, as you said, I love that the community we've lost the community effect here in our society. We are raising children in silos. If if even

Debra McNinch (26:42.505)
Yes. Brother, sister. Yes.

Debra McNinch (27:01.428)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:04.266)
if we're doing that. We've we've left our children and I don't I don't want to get political on this but we have left our children to be raised by.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:18.836)
the government or schools and yeah.

Debra McNinch (27:20.189)
Yes.

And then we have to be silent and you know, it says in Revelation that we will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. And I know at the beginning I wanted to hide all of these things. I was hoping no one would ever find out, but I really, after a while, I learned that that's Satan and that is a lie from the pit of hell because the more I speak it and the more I bring my darkness to the light, the more that Jesus is in this story. And so I just tell moms and dads, be brave, tell your

Ruth Hovsepian (27:28.834)
All right. All

Ruth Hovsepian (27:39.612)
Yeah.

Debra McNinch (27:52.28)
Tell the people you sit beside in church on Sunday. Tell them that you are hurting, that you don't have a perfect family and you need prayer. Be brave and speak up.

Ruth Hovsepian (27:52.737)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:02.528)
Yeah, I have discovered that also in my own journey on this one that pretending that everything is perfect is a disservice to not just those that I pray for, but to those around me who may be struggling with very similar.

Situations. And I discovered that with my own testimony, with sharing prayer needs for my loved ones that, and you start to build a community that you know, is there to pray for you. It's not a gossip machine. And you know, I hear this all the time. I don't trust. And well, those are the people you don't share with, you know, it doesn't mean that

Debra McNinch (28:33.727)
Mm -hmm.

Debra McNinch (28:46.239)
Great.

Ruth Hovsepian (28:56.876)
There aren't other people that you can find. If you pray for discernment, pray for people to come into your life. And sometimes it means making yourself vulnerable, opening yourself up to those. And I've come to the point in my life. If someone wants to use and gossip about what I'm going to say, it's on them. It's not about.

Debra McNinch (29:05.937)
Absolutely.

Debra McNinch (29:12.757)
Great.

Debra McNinch (29:24.199)
That's absolutely true.

Ruth Hovsepian (29:27.084)
There's no shame on me. I did what I have come to understand the scripture to tell me to do. Shame on you if that's how you treat a prayer request. And I, yeah, it's, I wanna reassure parents today that it's not about you. This is not about you.

I actually, last week's episode, we talked about parents raising their children with the perspective of eternal, know, eternity, right? And that was one of the things we need. If your children are young enough, you raise them very purposefully for eternity.

Right? You, you set them out with the tools that they need and the foundation that they need to make the right choices. And you then you leave them to the Lord and pray on them and guide them. But those of us that did not have that opportunity or, or were good, and this was another thing, you're good parents, but not godly parents. Then you need to hand your children over to the Lord.

and you pray on them now and you cannot you can't do anything else.

Debra McNinch (30:58.269)
If I could have went back and done anything differently, I always tell people, I always joke and say, I would not have taken my children to church. And when I say that, what I mean by that is I spent a lot of time taking my children to Sunday, know, Sunday evening, Wednesday, youth group, all the things we went to church. But I don't feel like I spent enough time introducing them to Jesus. And if I could do something different, I would have spent more time just

Ruth Hovsepian (31:06.294)
Mmm.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:13.055)
Right, right.

Ruth Hovsepian (31:21.78)
I know exactly what you're saying.

Debra McNinch (31:28.135)
the Holy Spirit to them and that guidance that comes from them and not religion as much as maybe I did in my life. you know, and I wouldn't have maybe, I don't want to say relied on the church, but I think I didn't have enough knowledge as a young Christian and as a young parent. You know, we dedicate our children to the Lord and they pray Jeremiah 29, 11 over him that they're going to have this hope in the future. But what we don't, you know, what I didn't know and what we don't always tell parents is that, you know,

Ruth Hovsepian (31:48.842)
Hmm.

Debra McNinch (31:58.039)
that verse was for Jeremiah and he was getting ready to go into captivity and he did have a hope in the future. God knew the eternal plan but there was like a 70 -year kind of captivity prison sentence in the middle of that and so we don't really like to talk about those hard things you know with with the parents and so I never want to scare parents I want to prepare parents for what's coming and and you just you just keep declaring the word over them and you keep introducing them to Jesus and you just keep speaking life over

them and these are the things that will make a difference. Taking them to church on a Wednesday night may or may not make a difference but if you have a devotion and a prayer time when you're home I guarantee you that's going to change their life.

Ruth Hovsepian (32:40.002)
I agree with you 100 % on this, Debbie. Parents are responsible for building the foundation. We've become lazy, and I'm sorry, we gotta say what it is. We have become lazy, and we pawn off our children to the church, to youth groups, to Sunday school, to camps, to whatever it is, to events, and we do not do the work ourselves.

Debra McNinch (32:46.943)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (32:50.336)
Yes, it is.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:08.7)
I include myself in that and we do not set an example to our children on what it means to walk with the Lord. And I'm sorry, I'm raising my voice because I'm, it's passion, I'm passionate about this. I see this in, that is what is important.

Debra McNinch (33:10.153)
Yes, absolutely.

Debra McNinch (33:21.225)
No, it's passion.

Debra McNinch (33:28.574)
Right? What?

Want parents to know I made mistakes and that I wish somebody would have walked with me differently You know, we have a lot of moms in our group and including me in some ways We did do all the things right like we did a lot of the right things and then we still got an outcome Maybe we didn't plan on but then kind of the other part of that is preparing our hearts as well And like I said at the beginning, what is my foundation? sat on and if everything crumbles is

Ruth Hovsepian (33:33.472)
Yes. Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (33:45.185)
Mm.

Debra McNinch (34:00.007)
still good? That's the question of the day. And he is. He is still good. If you do all of these things and you don't get the outcome you hoped for, God is still good and he is still on the throne. And he is the one that opened the sea. You know, he can, we can walk across on dry land. We can do all the things because of Christ. And so we just have to keep trusting in his plan and his timing, even if we didn't see it on our radar.

Ruth Hovsepian (34:23.872)
Yeah. And, and, and I want to say one final, you know, touch on one final thing. And, and really that is that remember yourself in this season. And if you become so

Ruth Hovsepian (34:45.686)
depressed over the situation that you are not showing your love. You are not showing that you are praying over them. If so, what I'm trying to say is stop nagging. It, it not start loving, stop nagging, start loving. Nagging is not going to change your, your, the behavior. It is not going to change the outcome.

Debra McNinch (35:03.378)
Yes, start loving.

Ruth Hovsepian (35:15.582)
Anything it will alienate the person. And this goes not just for our children, but for spouses, for family members. Stop nagging, start loving, start praying for them and showing them what it means to walk in the presence of the Lord. What it means to be a child of God. Let your life be an example.

Debra McNinch (35:23.476)
Great.

Debra McNinch (35:41.321)
Yes, and speak life over them. Speak the things that aren't as if they were. Start praising God that your child is a son of God. Start praising God that your daughter is a daughter of the Lord. And start speaking into their gifts. If they're worship leaders, thank you, Lord, that my child is going to lead worship. Thank you, Lord, that my child is going to preach. Start speaking the things that you see in their life that the Lord is going to use. there's not an easy, this isn't an easy road. I thought I was going to get from

Ruth Hovsepian (35:43.563)
Yes.

Yes. Amen.

Debra McNinch (36:11.375)
point A to point B and it was going to be kind of just like a major highway. There wasn't going to be any bumps on it. And you know, what I found out is I'm off -roading and I'm in a Jeep, you know, now and I'm going down the mountains and down the, you know, and so, you know, it's okay.

Ruth Hovsepian (36:17.686)
Yeah, duh, duh.

Ruth Hovsepian (36:25.354)
The owner's manual did not ship with the child. Yep. Yeah, that's it.

Debra McNinch (36:27.957)
Throw that out the window seven years ago. so, you know, but God is saying, I feel like in this hour, if you are a mom and her dad right now and you're in, you're listening and you're like, what in the world am I going to do? You know, I like to go back to the story in first Samuel 30 and David and his men and they were out doing the Lord's work. They were out fighting these battles. And when they came home, they found out that their wives and their children had been stolen by the enemy. And the first thing they did is they all kind of fell to the ground and just, and

Wept over what they had lost and then finally David he got up and he was like Bring me the things of the Lord and he sought the Lord it says and end of his word I'm looking at it right here It says that he sought the Lord and he said what am I gonna do and the Lord said? Pursue them and I feel like that's the message that the Lord is saying right now today Do not stay on the ground weeping get up and pursue your family and refuse what the world is saying

refuse to listen to the world, go after your kids in the spirit realm and that is how they're going to come back.

Ruth Hovsepian (37:34.366)
Amen. Debbie, I want to give you my deepest thanks for being here today and for sharing your story and all that what you are doing with battle cry. Mom, if you or someone you know is facing a similar journey, I strongly encourage you to connect with Debbie and the battle cry community for support and encouragement. All the information is in the description below.

Debra McNinch (37:40.575)
Thank you.

Debra McNinch (37:51.561)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (37:55.135)
Yes.

Debra McNinch (38:01.002)
Yes.

Ruth Hovsepian (38:02.036)
You can learn more about Battle Cry Moms and the resources they offer by visiting their website. Thank you for joining us today on Out of the Darkness. Remember, no matter how dark it may seem, there is always hope. Stay strong, stay faithful, and keep seeking the light and sharing it with others.

Debra McNinch (38:09.279)
Thank you.

Debra McNinch (38:21.81)
Amen.