Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian

The Impact of Pornography on Relationships: A Therapist's Perspective with DONNA SCOTT

• Ruth Hovsepian/Donna Scott • Season 1 • Episode 42

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This episode delves deep into the profound consequences of pornography addiction on marriages and relationships. My insightful guest, Donna Scott, a meticulous therapist, and I navigate through the murky waters of this brain-altering addiction that impacts the individual and their partners, leading to betrayal trauma and significant dissatisfaction in relationships. 

Donna grants you access to her treasure trove of insights on resolving conflicts in relationships, underscoring the importance of compromise, open-hearted discussions, and gratitude. 

This episode is a goldmine of wisdom for anyone entangled in the complex world of relationships and the challenges pornography addiction can pose. 

Tune in, absorb, and share your thoughts.


Resources: 

✔Covenant Eyes - https://www.covenanteyes.com/ 

✔Focus on the Family - https://www.focusonthefamily.com/ 

✔Pure Desire - https://puredesire.org/

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0:00:00 - Donna Scott
They didn't talk about sex in church, it was mainly just don't do it. But there were no guidelines about it. There was no understanding that sex is a human drive given to us, gifted to us by God, and when you think about thirst being the number one drive, hunger being the number two drive and number three is sexuality, we got to talk about it. We got this a gift. God gave us the gift, but he gave us the gift and I tell my people I said next to salvation, I think sex is the best gift God gave us. But this gift comes with instructions. 

0:00:56 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Hi, I'm Ruth Hubsup. Kim, welcome to the Out of the Darkness podcast, where we help you navigate life's trials based on faith and biblical truths. Today, my guest is Donna Scott, a therapist, and we are talking about porn and the effects of porn on marriages and relationships. Join me today as we have this in-depth conversation and, by the way, we had to record this and restart the recording at least at minimum four times, because Satan did not want this conversation to take place. But we did it, we persevered, we prayed on it, we pushed Satan out of this and we got it. And here it is for you to listen. Leave us your comments at the end and tell us what you think about it. So help me. Welcome, donna Scott. All right, donna, let's try this again, because, as no one else knows except you and I, we've tried recording this, I don't know how many times. 

Okay, so the question I really want to start with, because we talk about pornography in a Christian sense and we all say, oh, it's not right, it's not good for us. But I think this is more than that. Pornography is not just something that goes against our Christian values, it's also horrible for our marriages and for relationships. What are your thoughts about that. Why is it so bad for relationships, or for anyone in that case? 

0:02:40 - Donna Scott
Well, if I go with anyone, any form of addiction literally changes your brain Because we are made, god gives us a natural pleasure point and if we get into something that pushes our pleasure point even higher, we want to keep duplicating that. So porn it becomes addictive and the brain starts shifting to want to duplicate that pain point. So instead of you being in control of porn, porn then becomes in control over you. 

0:03:21 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Sorry question about this thing because I've kind of said that, because this is what I've heard. Now, I've never done drugs, I've never done crack, but I have been told by those who have both had addictions to to drugs and to porn that it is the equivalent. Pornography addiction is the equivalent of being getting a hit of crack or whatever you call it. I'm sorry, I don't know the lingo. Yeah, that's how it rewires your brain. 

0:03:51 - Donna Scott
And that those two things okay. 

0:03:54 - Ruth  Hovsepian
yeah, I understand that and I have said this through my own addiction that every hit and I'm doing air quotes to those that are only listening every hit of pornography your fuzzi had to be more. 

0:04:09 - Donna Scott
You're going fuzzy. 

0:04:10 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Okay. 

0:04:12 - Donna Scott
So we can keep going, but just in case, Okay. 

0:04:16 - Ruth  Hovsepian
So I've been told that you know there's nothing wrong with it, but I know, as someone who's come through this addiction, that every time I watched pornography I needed more, I needed something a little bit different. I needed and even personally, I say it affected my relationship because, you know, I know we haven't gotten there yet but one of the downsides of it, it affects you physically as well. For men, they have, they will, they may have erectile defunction what is the word? They can't get an erection, yeah, yeah, and, and, and even women, you know we already have issues with orgasm, right? Because, because, just the way our body is that, as women and who watch porn, it's not enough to be satisfied by our partner. We then need imagery or something to help us. So there's a lot of things that affect us now. 

0:05:26 - Donna Scott
And all that is contrary to what God intended about relationships. But, like I was saying, the research from non-Christian therapists and researchers is finding out what God said all along that the earlier you start porn, the more your brain is rewired, because our brain has two functions Avoid pain, seek pleasure. So just what you were describing is like you just want to keep finding that high again, and so that focus takes precedence over relationships. Yeah, and God created us for connection to turn to each other and when there is an addiction in play in the relationship, that partner is turning to the addiction and by turning to the addiction they're turning away from their partner. But God wants us like this, not like this, so that disconnect impacts the relationship. 

And for partners of people who are involved in porn, there's a name called betrayal trauma. Trauma is something that impacts your ability to cope or function. Betrayal is broken trust with a significant other. So you put that together Broken trust creates difficulty to function well in the relationship and that impact of betrayal trauma can be hurt embarrassment, shame, anger, depression, anxiety and decreased satisfaction in the relationship because now trust is not there. 

0:07:22 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, both people in this marriage are affected, because one feels betrayal, jealousy, right Feeling that they're being compared to. Or that is their fault, yes, or it's their fault. They're not good enough and then you have the one who is addicted to pornography, or they don't call it addiction. 

They just enjoy yeah they're not aware, then they're dealing with loneliness because they can't share the fact, because they may not be talking about it with their partner, and the shame of having this right, because if it wasn't shameful would you hide it? No, we don't hide something we're not ashamed of, right. So I think that, unbeknownst to this person who is involved in this pornography, they're causing a lot of pain to themselves and a lot of pain to their husband or wife. 

0:08:32 - Donna Scott
It's yeah it's just terrible. And what you said about addiction, because there are a lot of people who really don't believe they have a porn addiction, and I just want to address that for a second. 

0:08:42 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yes. 

0:08:42 - Donna Scott
So what they need to check out is if you don't have an addiction, then you can put it down in service of your relationship. But if you can't put it down for a week or two or a month and you end up coming back, then it's time to be honest with yourself that I really don't have control over this, as I thought it was. It really isn't just situational or just to unwind or just to relax, and anything that's impacting your relationship. Is it worth the price? No, but that's where I talk about the brain chemical changes, because at that point most people know my partner is my priority and the struggle is how am I doing this thing that causes me to turn away from the person I want to be with the most? Yeah, that's the struggle. 

0:09:43 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah it. You know, I've heard so many different excuses. I'm just going to say it. Excuses about why people watch pornography, why this and why that. And you know, it's interesting how certain addictions, when someone says talks about it, we accept it, we know it. But this pleasure of the senses, yes, we are so quick to deny that we are addicted to it and I think that it is fine to say that it is, it's sinful to do and it causes these damages. But I think we really need to talk about, you know, in our church community, yeah, why it's, why it starts to tear away and and break apart marriages, you know, and how it affects your relationship with your spouse, how it affects your relationship with your children. Yes, finance, it's like any addiction. Right, it's, yeah, it's. It's just we need to talk about it, and not just in men's groups in the churches, but for women as well. We do. 

0:11:08 - Donna Scott
And because, like you said earlier, addictions become secretive. Because shaming, yeah, and a few minutes. I want to talk about how to have a conversation with your partner about, okay, what are we going to do about porn in our relationship, right, yeah, so secrets thrive on Shane. 

0:11:35 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yes. 

0:11:35 - Donna Scott
Talking about it starves, the shame, and creating an environment with believers in the church, where my pastor calls it. We're supposed to be a spiritual hospital. 

Amen, we're not supposed to come having it all together. We're supposed to be able to share our problems in the church. James said if anyone is struck as sick, let them come to the elders and ask for prayer. The problem is we look at porn, which as a sin, which according to God's words. We've got plenty of scriptures. Yeah, god said, don't do that. But if I'm coming to you before the cry of help, so I can starve that shame, so I can get help for this chemical imbalance that's happening, so I can reset that pleasure principle, so that it's not getting honored or addressed with the books and the movies, but because I'm actually turning to my partner and having that connection and that pleasure that God intended all along. 

We've got to make safe space in the church. 

0:12:48 - Ruth  Hovsepian
I think also, we have to take a step back from this and say that we need to teach our children a healthy understanding of sexuality not fear based understanding of sexuality, what it is, so that they can honor themselves as well, because part of this is not that you disrespect your spouse, you're also disrespecting yourself, because it just means you have a warped idea of what sex is about. When you said this, it's part of this beautiful intimacy that God created for us and we mess it up because we have such unhealthy views of what sex is about and what's right and what's wrong. So I think if we were to start at a time. Every child is different. Every child needs different age. Whatever these conversations have to happen between parents and children, so that starts. 

0:13:58 - Donna Scott
It literally starts with calling a vagina a vagina and a penis and a penis, yes, right. 

0:14:05 - Ruth  Hovsepian
There's no shame. 

0:14:06 - Donna Scott
There's no shame in it, but there's so many people who learned about their bodies through schools Because their parents no one had that conversation with them, so they didn't know how to do it. They just didn't know how to do it and, like you're saying, it's time for us to break that generational cycle. 

0:14:25 - Ruth  Hovsepian
You really appreciate our bodies that God gifted us with, and it's not even just to, it's not even to introduce it to our children, right, children will have a very natural curiosity about things. And I think back to my children, mine. There's like a five and a half difference between the oldest and the youngest, but each one matured at a different time, each one, you know, like my oldest had, you know, whole other conversation, started dating at 15, had a boyfriend. Well, that conversation, if I had waited to have it until she was a teenager, right, good grief, can you imagine. 

But because of her maturity and things that happened, you know, as she was getting older, like she may have been nine or 10, I don't even remember because it was very natural, our conversation, I had had the conversation, so she had decided this was her decision that she would wait to marriage for sex. Very, you know, very mature in her decision. Very difficult, you know, because, again, I'm very close to my daughter, so I knew it was a difficult choice. So when she got engaged to get married, she and her fiance, my beautiful son-in-law, decided, and they made a vow in front of God that they would be holy and remain, you know, pure until they got married. Now, again, we're humans, we understand it's natural to want to consume. You know this feeling that we have Making. It is half the battle. Right To make these choices and decisions. 

0:16:20 - Donna Scott
So yeah, we can't just tell kids stay away. 

0:16:22 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah, and we can't tell kids just stay away from porn or sex. We need to tell them you know, have a decent conversation, talk about it. Yeah. 

0:16:30 - Donna Scott
Yeah, let's talk about it. And again, let's starve the shame. If you're a child or your friend or someone talks to you, hey, I'm struggling, don't. How dare you right? Even in the conversation between partners you don't want to shame and blame because you want they're taking a risk to talk to you about it. And how does God approach us when we bring our sins to him? He said come, let us reason together. 

He's open and he's willing to hear, and even though it's hard to talk about it and even if you don't have the answers, be okay to say thank you for sharing this with me. I don't have the answers, but I will look out, look for you and I will tell me about your struggle, right? 

0:17:22 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah. 

0:17:22 - Donna Scott
Listen and learn, and I know we're talking about kids, but sometimes friends. Yes, you know, we got to starve. The shame. 

0:17:31 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah, do you do you? You know, as a therapist and even as a woman, you know a married woman? Yeah, Is there a way to get back a relationship to a healthy place when one of the spouses has battled with porn addiction? 

0:17:55 - Donna Scott
First, and this really depends on what we call discovery or disclosure, by that. I mean, there's your husband and I'll just say husband because it could be your wife, but you know interchangeable. Did your husband come up to you and say, hey, I been watching movies occasionally? Right, right, I've been. That's what we call disclosure, and even though there's still an element of betrayal, it's not as deep as discovery. Going on your phone, going on your computer, what is this? 

0:18:35 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah. 

0:18:37 - Donna Scott
Right, that is a deeper wound. Now I've been blessed to watch God heal marriages from betrayal trauma. It is not easy and it takes work and commitment, and the beauty is that you don't have to do it alone. So let's say you're the wife and, whether you discovered it or your husband disclosed to you, you have some work to do. First, let's go from the example. You discovered it. 

First, acknowledge how you feel. Give yourself room to feel what you're feeling. Are you angry? Are you embarrassed? What are your concerns? Are you concerned that he prefers a different shape to yours? Are you concerned that he finds you wanting or lacking in his right Everything you're thinking, feeling and concerned about? 

Then give yourself space to grief, because the marriage you thought you've had is not what you thought. So with grief, grief comes because there's a loss. Journal what you're feeling, what we call process. I'm sad, I'm upset. I want to burn all his clothes. Get it all out. Get that out, because the more you can do that, the more you can understand you and the more you can understand what you need to be able to communicate that with him. And then you need to. I would absolutely recommend you get support for yourself, whether it's that sister in Christ, or there are churches who have groups and I'm sure Ruth knows some resources. Talk to somebody about that, even if, even, maybe before you even talk to your partner, even before you talk to your husband, get let the Lord equip you and prepare you for that tough conversation and when, and pray about God's timing. Lord, give me the time to have this conversation with him. Lord, give me the words to share, give me the ears to hear him, give him the ears to hear me, so that when you have that conversation with him, be the phrases, be curious, not furious. 

Ask. You know, I found this. What are your thoughts about doing porn? Don't go in with assumptions. Let them talk to you. Let him talk to you. 

Oh well, I didn't think there was anything wrong. I've done this all my life, or it was just the one. Like you were saying excuses, but whatever. But what do you believe about porn? Do you think it's okay to be porn in our marriage? Let them you know you're being curious and then, once you get those answers from them, then share your beliefs about how porn is impacting you or and how it made you feel and how it bothers you and and maybe the concerns you have. You know it makes me feel like you want these women and that I'm not good enough for you. Right, but do it in a calm voice and this is where the Holy Spirit will help. 

Yeah, and if at any point the conversation becomes contentious pause, pause, say you know what. Let's take a time out. We're not hearing each other right now and we're already ripped. I don't want to add more injuries All that time out, and then when you come back, when you can get to that point where you've both been heard, the final piece is, besides seeking professional help absolutely, is whether it's through a therapist or through your pastor, who's equipped to deal with betrayal trauma, because not every pastor I love I'm a PK, ruth, and I talked about this but not every pastor is trained to help certain sins that impact relationships. Yeah, so, and then have an agreement Okay, moving forward, because you can't control their, their addiction, you, you can't. But you can say all right, I, no more secrets, no more secrets. Whether that's going to be, you're going to be on the computer here or whatever, is a non-negotiable for you right. 

To be able to share that with your partner. 

0:23:50 - Ruth  Hovsepian
I know I just talked a lot, but no, I mean, you've given really good advice on all of this and, and you know, I, as as you were talking about it, I I could also, you know, see all of these steps being used for other things as well, because this is a great way of doing it. And, yes, most of the time when we confront someone, it's with anger, you know we, we haven't, we haven't gone through the process of you know, say, working it out in our own brain. 

As you said yeah, ahead of time. What is it exactly about this that bothers you? Right, because everybody will be bothered by it differently. You know we all have different triggers. We all have different. You know feelings of maybe inadequacy, or you know trauma from childhood that is going to be triggered by what we see. You know our husbands doing our wives, as we said, and because I don't want anyone to think this is about men only right, because women are just as foul with this right. 

We just may be manifested differently, because that's the other thing, right. Men tend to watch videos or movies, you know, and that's their go to, whereas women, yes, they watch porn, but they also read a lot of literature. They'll read, they'll read books, and for them, books are their porn, you know, so to speak right, it's their gateway. 

It's their gateway. Yes, exactly, and you know I've used this example in the past of 50 Shades of Grey being the biggest ticket, right. I mean, I remember when that book came out and I was getting my nails done back then and I was sitting, you know, in front of my friend and I was hearing all of these people, women, around me, talking about it and laughing and giggling and all I wish my husband. I haven't read the book so I cannot really talk about it, but I know enough about the book to say that this was porn and I called them on it and they were all rude. It's not pornography, come on. You know there's this. And I said but how would you feel and here I am not looked upon very favorably at the time what would you have done if this was your husband? Listen to yourselves, women. You are saying I wish this man was my husband. Boom, silence. Because how would you feel if your husband watched a movie and turned around and said, oh, my wife doesn't meet up to expectations? I wish my? Why the double standard right? So I call out women on this as well, because there are different and you know this. This isn't pornography. 

But there is one other point, and it's about relationship, is comparing your husband. Oh, I wish my husband was more. Yeah, I wish my husband did this. I wish my husband did that. Well, why don't you talk to your husband, is my first question. Don't go around talking down or talking, you know, putting him down in front of people working out, and I could be wrong. I'm not the therapist, but in my mind I know that if I'm not meeting up to expectations, to you know, with my spouse, I would like him to come and tell me. You know, ruth, I wish you could. Yes, is it possible? Can I do something to help you? Do X, y and Z, you know whatever it is, and not go tell his friends. You know, my wife doesn't know how to wash dishes, whatever it is right, but we do that as well and we are. What's the word? Emasculating our husbands? Is that the right word? I don't know, but we're just taking away this, this. Yeah, I don't know, it's just a little. 

0:28:15 - Donna Scott
It's kind of like that sense, because I can hear that and I can because of what I do. I can also know that sometimes they're saying that because saying that to their husbands they're not getting heard. So they might share with other women because they know they'll be heard. So it could be both right. Because, yes, ideally and again it goes back to what I said at the beginning God created us for connection, that we can turn to each other and share what we're needing or what we're struggling with and again build one another up, encourage one another. 

That's why I did talk about the impact of having that conversation with your partner, because you know what happens when you have that conversation this becomes this and what was disconnected has the potential for a reconnection. And when reconnection happens, healing happens, repair happens. So, whether it's the what I call the rupture from pornography or unmet needs, unmet emotional needs that may be occurring. And, yes, like you said, that same template that I gave for having that having that conversation with your partner, hey, watching oh my gosh Twilight when I was 15 years old I was like, oh, that's right, that's sense, but it meets a need of your paying attention to me. 

You see me and if that is an unmet need to, again, lord, give me the words to say this to my husband so that he can hear me. And Lord, or vice versa, lord, what am I not doing? And again, not blame right, not shaming and blaming. Not shaming and blaming yourself, not shaming and blaming your partner. Being honest with what you need and I wish I could promise that you would have these conversations and you know it'll be a yellow brick road of amazement, but relationships take work, yeah, and I think that's the key, right? 

0:30:46 - Ruth  Hovsepian
It's this misconception that we get from society. You know watching rom-coms and you know all of these chick flicks and stuff that everything is a bed of roses. And at my age I'm not going to refer to your age you are young, 29 year old woman. 

0:31:03 - Donna Scott
Oh yeah. 

0:31:04 - Ruth  Hovsepian
We are. Excuse me, you know, but at my age I have come to realize something and I never understood this when I was young is that just because you argue, just because you have a falling out, just because you disagree about something, does not mean the love is gone? Exactly, and I was afraid of that and I've given this example. So it's not a secret that I thought having a disagreement with my husband I'm divorced now, but at the time when I was married, that if I had a disagreement with my husband, it meant I no longer loved him because I was disagreeing with him. I equated that in the wrong way. Right Disagreements meant no love. No love in hindsight, which is 2020. If we had argued and had these disagreements, we probably could have solved a lot of issues that we were having in our relationship, and I've come to understand that both of us were non confrontational people. What about match right? 

Neither one wanted that disagreement and you know, I've come to learn that you need to have those conversations and that is one thing my poor children have had me drill into their heads. Even my children in love I've drilled into their heads. Have these conversations. If you disagree with each other, no worries. You can't stand each other after the conversation Until my children in love come to me. My children stay there, have a time out, but work it out, talk, have these conversations because it is important. And finally I want to. You said, something that really is important is we need to stop and pray and have this conversation with God. Before we have the conversation, or we have the confronting the person, or it may be disclosing, as you said, right, we need to have that conversation because he's the only one that can give us the peace or the calmness. 

0:33:33 - Donna Scott
I'm not even saying acceptance right. Just the calmness Support. Support is in it, yeah. 

0:33:41 - Ruth  Hovsepian
And help us. 

0:33:43 - Donna Scott
Because, like you were saying about that disagreement, we don't get along. 

0:33:48 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah. 

0:33:50 - Donna Scott
And it's on my soapbox. It's like oh, how is it that? The two most important jobs we it's on the job training, you know, just go get your marriage license and, yeah, you're good, the bracelets match at the hospital, you're great for parenting. But you can't get a license without learning how to drive a car, can't be a therapist without going. The two most important things we just expect people to naturally know how to do that. Yeah, and I'm talking about if we don't agree. Well, research shows that 69% of issues couples will not agree on, 69%, and when? 

0:34:32 - Ruth  Hovsepian
I tell my couple that's a high percentage. 

0:34:35 - Donna Scott
So my couple's looking at me like then what do we do? Then you learn how to listen to one another. 

And you figure out how we're going to compromise on this one 29% piece of cake. 69% not, that's huge, that's huge, that's huge. So here's the thing I am more concerned about couples who tell me when I do my premarital, they're like we don't fight. I'm like, okay, I'm scared because that tells me you're not sharing you. Couples who come to marriage counseling we fight all the time and I said you know what? That's not scary to me. The real indicator is when there is a disconnect or a rupture or a conflict. That's not the problem. The problem is how quickly can you re repair and how quickly can you reconnect. 

0:35:37 - Ruth  Hovsepian
I have a confession to make. So I have two children that are married and my youngest is in a relationship as well, and I have to be honest about something and I've had to say this to them because, as a family, my children and I have disagreements. We're four different individuals, right? Yes, absolutely, and we'll say what we have to say, but within minutes we're laughing and joking and we're done, we're over it Right Now. I've never had that in a relationship. So my children have now, I understand, very healthy relationships. But honestly, when I see my children and my children in love have disagreement, something happens in me A fear sets in me. 

It's my fear, not theirs, and I have caught myself and now I'm a lot better about it because I have people like you in my life that I have these discussions with. But honestly, I would be like, okay, guys, it's not necessary, just be understanding. And I'm like no, no, no, ruth, no, shut up, shut up, ruth, because I know what they're doing is healthy, because within minutes they're okay as well, because they've repaired. Yes, oh goodness, donna, I'm telling you my poor children, you know, and it scared me at the beginning, like you know, alexis has been married now for six years almost and it scared me when I saw them, you know, like disagree, not even argue, like you know, I've never seen that, just disagreeing. 

And there's a fear in me because all I know is that disagreements lead to a divorce. Right, that's your experience. Yeah, so, but the last, you know, couple of years have been that healing process. But when you say it, there was such a relief, even though in my mind, academically yeah, you know, academically, I know it to be true, right, but hearing it come from you, you know it's like Ruth, this is normally for children alone. 

0:38:07 - Donna Scott
Well, I saw your shock when I said 69% of the things you're not going to agree on. 

0:38:13 - Ruth  Hovsepian
You're like yeah, I know. And again, you know, I know the statistics right, because you know I've been doing a lot of research on you know for different things, and I know and you know I've said to my kids, you're two different people, you're coming together, but but emotionally, yes, I deal with it differently. That's why I said, academically, I know it right and so I've said to my kids have your disc. You know like disagreements and then it'll be. It'll be okay, but as a mom, oh good grief. 

0:38:48 - Donna Scott
Well, we don't want our babies to hurt. Yes, exactly, we want to protect them from everything, but you know those growing pains that help develop their relationship. Yes, yes. Yeah. 

0:39:01 - Ruth  Hovsepian
And I you know, these are subjects that can go on forever, I think we have a, we have a, we have a passion for this, you know, and I you know we, we hearts. 

Yeah, it is, it's true, you know. I really want people to understand that it's not a lost cause. We can be healed. We can personally be healed Absolutely. If we have the addiction, we can be healed. If we've hurt our spouses through our own addictions, they, you know that healing process can take place Absolutely. Our relationships can be healed. These are things that I really want to get out there to those, as you said I love that those hurting hearts. You know the church is a hospital for the hurting, and you know I. This is why we do this, right, this is why I do it. I really want people to see that there is hope and that there's joy in Christ. Right, yeah, and it's turned to him in these difficult times. Because it's worth, though, it is worth the fight to keep your relationships. I, you know I'm the biggest proponent of you know work on your marriages. Divorce is not an easy thing. It doesn't solve anything, it just splits it apart, you know. So any words to leave us with Donna. 

0:40:29 - Donna Scott
Well, I did. What crossed my mind is yes, we are dealing with talking about porn and how it ruptures relationships. You also, usually there is more than one issue that's tearing up the relationship and again, it's not about blame. Well, I do porn because you know no, no, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 

But also, when you are doing your, there's a verse in Psalms 139s. It says search me, Lord, and if you find anything, reveal it to me. So in that time you're alone with God and your journal. And like what? How am I contributing to other problems in my marriage? Yeah right, you did not contribute in any shape, form or fashion to your partner's addiction. I am not saying that and I wanted to be very clear about that. But I am saying when you work on relationships, there's more generally than one issue, and that's where having professional help comes in. Two, the church is supposed to be a spiritual hospital, but not all churches are equipped. So pray and ask God, and I'm pretty sure Ruth is going to list some resources for you to seek out people who get your pain. Yeah, that's what I really want. 

My heart hurts when people end up going to the wrong, what they thought was the right person, and end up getting hurt worse. I had a friend who was in an emotionally abusive marriage and she went to, I think, the Deacons or the pastor, I can't remember, and they told her she didn't pray enough and that she wasn't submissive enough. And my friend left that meeting and tried to kill herself, but the Holy Spirit stopped her and led her to someone who would hear her. So that I just urgently like really seek God's guidance and if you are talking to someone and the Holy Spirit, the red flags start happening. Please go silent and just end that conversation until the Lord opens that door for that safe place for you. I don't want you to get re-injured, I just don't, because sometimes in our desire to help people, we do more harm. That's right and I just ooh, no, please. 

0:43:16 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Yeah, I, that's. That's great. I mean I we need to know when to be silent and we need to know when to talk. Donna, I really want to thank you for joining me today on and sharing your story, your wisdom and your knowledge. It's been such a pleasure to have you on out of the darkness. And to my friends who are listening and watching today, check out the show notes on connecting with Donna Scott and please subscribe and share to grow our community. Thank you, donna, thank you. 

0:43:50 - Donna Scott
Ruth. 

0:43:55 - Ruth  Hovsepian
Thank you for joining me. To stay connected, Follow me on Instagram and Facebook. If you like this podcast, can you help me find new listeners by leaving a rating and review? This small step takes only a moment, but really helps grow the listening audience. So let me thank you in advance. I hope you have a wonderful day and until next time let's continue on our journey as followers of Jesus Christ. I am Ruth Huffseppian.