Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian

Finding Light in the Darkness: Overcoming Spiritual Abuse and Rebuilding Faith with AMANDA TURNBULL

• Ruth Hovsepian/Amanda Turnbull • Season 1 • Episode 27

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In this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Amanda Turnbull about her journey from growing up in a small town in Wyoming and attending a church that didn't teach a deep relationship with Christ to spending almost twenty years at a fundamental and toxic church. Amanda shared her experience of spiritual deconstruction, overcoming spiritual and emotional abuse, and rebuilding her faith. 

 

We also discussed the importance of recognizing and stepping away from toxic church environments, the power of sharing personal stories, and the creation of the "Come to the Table" podcast and ASHA Media, a company dedicated to supporting women in their spiritual journeys and callings from God. Join us for this enlightening and inspiring conversation about navigating spiritual abuse, deconstruction, and reconstruction in faith.



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✔Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/altbull84/

✔Podcast - https://cometothetablepodcast.com/podcast/




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0:00:00
Working in the same office as that pastor, dealing with not only that fundamental teaching, but there was a lot of spiritual and emotional abuse that happened in that office. And so dealing with that, I I was embarrassed to tell my husband. I I was embarrassed to say, I mean, I I'm an an adult woman, and I was screamed at and berated by my pastor like I was a little kid. And I had to go sit out in my car multiple occasions and just cry and then put myself back together. I kept makeup in my purse so that if I cried during the day, I I could you know, fix my face before I I went back to work. Hi. I'm Ruth Hovsepian. Welcome to the out of the darkness podcast where we help you navigate life's trials based on faith and biblical truths. Amanda Turnbull was raised in church but didn't come to know Christ until she was an adult. She served at a church for nearly fifteen years, spending time on leadership and staff. After God opened her eyes to toxicity, Amanda left her church and underwent spiritual deconstruction, but still came out being able to acknowledge God for who he is in her life and what he has purposed for her to do. She has a passion for encouraging those suffering from spiritual abuse as well as helping women realize they can understand scripture. While welcome Amanda. I am thrilled to have you on out of the darkness today, and I look forward to hearing your story and where you are at today. So Let's start off. Can you give us a little bit of a background of who you are and where you're coming from? Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me today.

0:02:08
I grew up in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming. And Christianity was something that we did as a family on Sundays. But it really didn't go deeper than that. It was just somewhere we went. It was, you know, important at Christmas and at Easter time, but we weren't really taught intense relationship with Christ. I met my husband when I was in high school, and his family was a part of a church. And so I started attending there. After we got married, we attended there. And this church was at the time, I thought it was a very like breath of fresh air when it comes to, like, teaching you how to have a relationship with Christ. And We spent almost twenty years at that church, and it wasn't until through COVID that we came to realize just how fundamental and toxic the teachings of that church were, and how it had been a huge detriment to our family. And so we ended up about a year after COVID happened. We ended up walking away from the the church, the only church our our kids had known. The church I I was in employment there. I I we served there. And like I said, we were there for almost twenty years. And that led to a huge spiral of a deconstruction, not so much for my faith. I was always very solid in God was who he said he was and Christ was who he said he was and I knew without a doubt I had the holy spirit in me and that God spoke to me and worked through me. I I knew that without a doubt, but just detangling myself. From the toxicity and the false fundamental teachings that I had been taught for so many years and it is through a lot of patience by my husband and my family. And my friends and therapy that has gotten me to the point where I feel like I have come out the other side of that situation before we continue.

0:04:50
For those that may not know what a fundamental church is. Can you give us a brief description of that? Absolutely. It is a church that takes scripture so seriously to the detriment of God being able to work in the life of anyone outside of the head pastor. The head pastor is the only one who can hear from God who can be told if something is right around you as a person of the church are allowed to. Say, oh, I thought like God was saying this, but it was always the head pastor had to verify, yes, this is God or no, it is not. You were drilled with certain parts of scripture that were held onto so tightly. That they could not be strayed from at all while other parts of scripture were glossed over the those little tricky parts of scripture that you know, we have to wrestle with and we have to come to a place of understanding and reconciliation with God with. Those were not talked about. And so it was really the same, you know, handful of scriptures that were used to drive home everything. And the the control of the leadership in a fundamental church is all about being able to keep people in line and keep them doing what you want them to do as a leader. Instead of giving people the freedom to do whatever it is that God has asked them to do, and God is calling them to you as a leader have a specific agenda of what needs to be done. And if anyone steps outside of that, then there's consequences. There's so much to unpack here. So, you know, let me try it from this end.

0:06:57
So to me, coming from a very conservative evangelical church and background, it sounds very cultish. Am I wrong in saying that? No. No. Not at all. It is. My I have two very close friends, one of which I I host a podcast with. And -- Mhmm. -- and we we all had left that church roughly around the same time. Mhmm. And coming out the other side and and dealing with the ramifications of mine. We all are like, we were in a cult. Oh my gosh. We were It was and there's I think COVID opened it opened our eyes, and I think it opened so many people's eyes. And hundred percent. Yeah. That is why the the deconstruction movement is so prominent right now is we know it's not every church. We know it's not, you know, every Christian organization. But it's enough that when people's eyes were opened, they started to realize, I'm less in a church family who loves me and I'm I'm more an adult. Yeah.

0:08:10
So you were not really encouraged or were you encouraged to read the scriptures and to find a revelation that Christ that God was giving you. Did you have that kind of freedom or did it was it dictated by the leadership or the pastor? It was very much dictated. Everyone was encouraged to read their a bible. They you know -- Right. -- there were multiple bible study classes that were taught of how to properly read your bible. Mhmm. That all along with what the leadership wanted you to get out of of scripture.

0:08:49
I I love history. I'm very historically minded. I fell in love with scripture because I started looking at it, like, This is God's history book of his people. And I wanted to know everything about it. I wanted to know when it said they used this cup, what did that cup look like? What did what did they use it for in biblical times when -- Mhmm. -- you know, when it did would just describe certain places. I would wanna know what did that city look like at that time? What it what was it like to live where Jesus lived? That's awesome. You're you're bringing to life what is in the word. Yes. And -- Yeah. -- that because the leadership at that church was not historically minded, it was very much discouraged and discounted. That that is what we should be doing.

0:09:46
It started off me and my friend. Both very similarly minded, we would read scripture, and we would have questions, and we couldn't ask anyone we had tried over the years to ask leadership, hey, this came up. I'm curious, and it was shut down. And so we started asking each other these questions, and we basically went through kind of in secret for a while pulling apart scripture and really, like, when it said this, what it what does that mean? What it what was the original word that they used? And, you know, really digging deep into the scripture. And as we started having conversations just with each other, other women started catching on. And we were actually asked by other women in the church if we would do a bible study where we would read read through the books of the bible together. And we we did it for a little bit. And then eventually, the pastor's wife is Hold on. The pastor's Mother-in-law came in joined our group. Wow.

0:10:56
And so when we would say something of, you know, while historians don't really know and they'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. God's word is infallible. Well, okay. But we're talking about the historicalness -- Mhmm. -- of what is going on. And so historians aren't quite sure. And so everything that we we would discuss in a historical sense would be then turned around of we were definitely made to feel like there's something wrong with our faith for wanting to know why why was this word used and not this word? Why why does it say certain things though, but why are certain things brought up? And you're like, what what Where did that come from? And there was something wrong with our faith for having questions like that. Yeah. How did how did your husband deal or react to this? A lot of the the stuff that went on, I I did not tell him.

0:12:08
This church was very much the men are lifted up as leaders. The men are revered as leaders, and the women's job is to sit down, be quiet, and obey. Who did the leadership for the women? The the pastor through his so his wife led the women. But it was very much less. Yeah. Yes. And so working in that church, I I did the the website and social media and stuff for the church for years voluntarily.

0:12:54
It got to the point where in our family dynamic, I needed to have a job, a paying job. I had been to stay at home on for years. And it was agreed by the pastor and his wife that I could come and work at the church. And that that would be allowed because it would be honoring what my husband had asked me to do, which was we had come to a mutual decision that it was time for me. To have a job. And so I I was raised by a very strong and dependent single mom. I I grew up thinking women can do everything men can do. And we are all equal partners in this where, you know, God has has put us all here and we're all here to do the work together. And there's that's not to say that, you know, men have some strengths and women have other strengths that's, you know, that's not discounting that, but it's -- Okay. -- really like an equal partnership you know.

0:14:04
And I went in gun blazing so excited to do the work of the Lord and and be able to support my family while doing that. And I initially had been hired on to be the pastor's assistant, but very quickly, he realized he he did not like my personality. And so every about once a month, my my title would change. And I wouldn't even realize my title would change. He would say something from stage of like, well, that's what we hire Amanda for. And it became like a joke where I would look at my husband or I would look at my friend and be like, oh, I guess that's my job now. And so pretty much anything that people didn't wanna do came to me. And their working in the same office as that pastor.

0:15:03
And dealing with not only that that fundamental teaching, but there was a lot of spiritual and emotional abuse that happened in that office. And so dealing with that, I I was embarrassed to tell my husband I I was embarrassed to say, I mean, I I'm an an adult woman, and I was screamed at and berated by my pastor like I was a little kid. And I had to go sit out in my car multiple occasions and just cry and then put myself back together. I kept makeup in my purse so that if I cried during the day, I I could you know, fix my face before I I went back to work. And it was embarrassing to tell my husband that. So a lot of a lot of the stuff that happened during that period of time, I didn't even feel safe to tell him until after we had left. It is mind boggling.

0:16:11
The things that happen behind closed doors in our churches And I know that in the last decade, and even in the last five years, so much is coming out about churches and the abuse in these churches. And it is, I think, horrible because it is it is such an awful testimony for those that are looking at us. And looking for guidance. And to me, this is unacceptable at so many at so many levels, you know, like in a humane level, you know, just between two humans to treat someone like that. Is awful. But when I add the faith, the Christian part into it, Wow. It's to me, that's, like, that is mind blowing because that is unacceptable. Yeah. You know? And and how do we proclaim that we are a child of god, disciples of Christ, and yet we treat others with so much disrespect so much. Can you tell us a little bit about what it means, the what the word deconstruction means in in the church sense. Absolutely.

0:17:45
So there's really two trajectories that I I feel are being taken when it comes to construction. It is people who are brought up in the faith and experienced trauma, abuse of multiple kinds and really came to a realization that they never experienced that faith for themselves. And so they're walking away from it altogether. And then there's the route that I feel like I am on. And it's I I heard it described recently more of, like, it's more of a detangling, and I feel like that's a very accurate scription of you you you have your faith. You have the foundation of your faith. But everything that you've built on top of that foundation, you have to tear down and you have to start all over.

0:18:45
Because when when you're in a situation like I was with this church, we were there for so long. I we I started attending this church when I was in high school, and it really It became so much a part of my identity and who I felt I was at the core of who I am as a person. Revolved around this building, this place, this one pastor that I when you walk away from something like that, it all just kind of falls apart. And your left almost like after a tornado comes through, you're left going through this broken building and you have a foundation, and you have a bunch of scattered junk everywhere and you're trying to figure out what is worth picking back up and what do I just need to throw away. And like you said, there's there's so much inexcusable abuse happening that I I was that person for a lot of years that was, like, you could never walk away. You could never walk away from the church. You could never leave your faith, but experiencing what I've experienced and talking to other people who, I mean, my experience is nothing. Compared to what other people have had to endure. Yeah. And, you know, I there's people who hear my story, and I'm sure they're like, oh, you got yelled at. Wish I only got yelled at. I have I have no idea how they endured what they endured for so long. And I I can't blame them for wanting to walk away from something because if you never if you never felt that faith was yours to begin with, then I understand why people walk away.

0:20:42
I had I I left the church that I had been going to since I since a week into my life. And it was, you know, my home church, you know, where I grew up, I I knew every nook and cranny of that church. There was nothing wrong with it with the teaching or anything like that. I needed to to leave and it happened during COVID and there, you know, many reasons for that. But those were all personal reasons. Nothing to do with the church or the teaching within the church. But there was a time of mourning for me because I had been there for so long I had invested my my time into it. And for a while there, I had in my mind you know you know, Lord, do you want me to to go somewhere else? Again, these were all personal reasons, you know. But every time I came back to the same thing, I've been here so long, what will people say, I've invested you know, so much into this.

0:21:51
I understand that that feeling of guilt of leaving and Sometimes we just we just need to to follow where the spirit is leading us. And it is the right thing for us to do, to grow in our faith because like you said, my faith for a long time. Was the faith of my parents and my grandparents. It was not my faith. Therefore, I stumbled and fell. Because it wasn't the solid foundation. It wasn't mine. I was following, you know, what my parents had taught me. And again, Don't misunderstand me. These were good things, but they weren't mine. I had to I had to step up in my faith and build that relationship with Christ so that my foundation would not shake when the first storm hit me because that's what happened to me. The first storm hit me and my world collapse and I just went into a whole different place.

0:22:58
So I understand that it is a very difficult thing and then to start over again. Is is really hard. Will you share where your faith is after all of that? So I still I like I said, I I feel like I had to tear everything down and kinda start all over, and so there's things that I've come to just accept that. I don't know. I don't know where I stand on some things, and and that's okay. Yeah. And when I need to what it's my time when god decides the timing of this is right, and you need to you know, make a decision on something, he he won't reveal those things to me. And so right now, I I have I throughout all of my old bible study notes, I throughout everything. I actually just ordered a new bible so that I could start reading through and I don't have the notes, the highlights, the underline, all of that kind of stuff that I had from before, and it's I mean, it's taken me. It's been two years, and this is the first time I'm reading through the bible in its entirety, and I I'm comfortable with that. Because there is a lot of things that come up.

0:24:24
You know, for some people, it takes them a while to get back into church. My husband and I felt very strongly that we needed to find a church just for that was what was right for our family. And so we we didn't jump into that. We didn't attend any in person for a a while. We looked online we watched online, and we were very, very blessed to be able to find a church local to us where we can attend We were able to sit down and talk to the pastor, and he's very understanding. He actually not only was understanding of where I came from, but he he recommended resources to be able to help us through what we were going through. And we didn't feel rushed or pushed into serving or, you know, becoming official members or anything like that. It was we were able to experience that true, like, no. We just want you to be a part of our search just because we all love Jesus. And we had never experienced that before -- Right. -- where you're allowed to worship with someone without any strings attached. And so that has helped a lot.

0:25:48
I am still a work in progress. But we all are. I'm not sure. We all are. And so my my friend and I who do our podcast together. We did an episode just kind of about where we were in And, you know, we we deconstructed. We've torn everything down. And so now we're we're in that reconstructing phase. And, you know, there's parts of my house that look pretty good. And I feel like, you know, I got some carpet and and we've painted a wall and we look pretty good. Some of my other rooms are still like, you know, the drywall's not completely up, but, you know, the electrical is a mess, but But we're we're making progress in every day.

0:26:34
God is showing me something new that I didn't realize about who he was. And I realized so much of who I assumed God was was because of what other people told me God was. And so for me to now be able to experience who God is in just a more intimate way just him and I. Yeah. That has made a huge difference. Yeah. And I love the fact that you got a new bible.

0:27:06
And I've been experiencing that as well. I you know, I was of the frame of mind that I had the same bible for decades, you know. And but in the last three three or four years, I've gone through three bibles. Because every time I read, I don't want to see the notes from my previous reading. I just want to to hear what the new message is for me and I find that to be very refreshing and it it lets it allows me to read it without preconceived ideas of what that scripture. So I always I I'm recommending now for people to have multiple bibles, you know? And I use a bible to to do studying with. I do a bible for my reading.

0:27:58
But that's just for me. You know, it's just the way it's working out for me and it allows me that time to just absorb what's what's there for me at that precise moment. And, yeah, it's a healing time for you. And and, you know, we're we're all in that in that place, right, where We have certain areas in our life that look good and other things that are still under construction. You know, I I I'm fifty seven. And my whole life is under construction at the moment, you know. And and I'm trusting in God, you know, carry me through and to help me with every decision that I'm making. And for the first time in my life, I've given myself that freedom to say, Lord, you lead me. I'm not making that decision because I've made a mess of things you know, and I just want a new beginning. Yeah.

0:29:03
Can you tell us a little bit about what you girls are doing with your podcast and, you know, other stuff that you are involved in? Absolutely. So our our podcast is called come to the table podcast. You love the name, by the way. Thank you. It's a great day. We you if you go back to our previous seasons, you really get a fur front row seat to our deconstruction. You'll you'll get to experience the episode where we're like, oh my gosh, we're deconstructing. We didn't know that's all we were doing.

0:29:43
And then this whole last season, we've really been focused on reconstructing and building back our faith and helping women have the tools to be able to, if they're in the same place as us, be able to reconstruct their faith themselves. And then we're in between seasons right now. But moving into next season, we really want to hear from women and hear their stories. Of how they have come to their place and their faith that they are. And through this whole process of our of our podcast, we ended up starting a media company for women -- Mhmm. -- experiencing what we did, walking through what we did.

0:30:27
There are so many women out there who feel as though they have a calling on their life who feel like God has asked them to use their voice for something bigger and they don't feel like they are worthy simply because they are a woman. And So that is what our company is all about. We founded ASHA Media in order to make a space for women. So whether they want to write a book or start a podcast or they need to build a website for their business, or they're not sure how to navigate social media or, you know, whatever they want to do, we wanna make a space for them. And let them know that they are valuable, that they're calling from god, does not need to be diminished just because they are a woman and that if God has called them to do big things, then he expects them to do big things. Amen to that. Yes, you're right.

0:31:31
You know, I I believe everyone's commission is to go out and to tell the world. But we also have individual commissions as well to use our own journeys. You know, to help others. And I think those of us that have started podcast I mean, I've listened to your podcast you know, going through them. And I highly recommend it to others who have, you know, had similar experiences or want to understand what is happening out there to listen to your podcast. But, yeah, it's it's just amazing how God can use our our own stories to reach out and to touch others and to help them. And Yeah. I I I hesitated in the beginning because it was, like, you know, who wants to hear my story, I made stupid you know, choices in my life and it led me to where I went and I had all of these very you know, negative thoughts about myself and what I had done, and yet I was encouraged by many to use it, to use the bad for the good -- Yeah. -- and to help other people. And in helping others, it helps us. You know, I I I'm sure it you can attest to that too, but in helping other people and telling my story. I get such an amazing response from others and women saying, wow, I feel the same way. You know, I'm I'm, you know, thank you for sharing.

0:33:20
Can you give us a couple of tips or suggestions. If someone finds themselves or or is unsure whether they are in a toxic environment in a church or in a toxic relationship with church members, how do they what is the first step they should take to step away from this? Ultimately, is your feelings are valid. And if you feel like there is something off or wrong, don't dismiss it. Don't excuse it away. I had spent so many years making excuses. For people and their behavior. And your feelings are valid. Mhmm. And just know as you go through this process, you will experience things like losing friends and being gas lit and things like that. And just know, you are not crazy and you are not alone. Yeah. And there is an entire community of people all over the world who are experiencing what you're experiencing. Yeah. And so you're learnings are valid. Next, I would just encourage you to journal write down your feelings, express your feelings so that when it comes time for you too, confront someone you're able to do that in love and not out of pent up emotion. Mhmm.

0:35:04
I am a huge proponent of therapy.

0:35:09
Talk to someone. Talk to someone about it. And there is nothing wrong with your faith. It does not make you weak if you need to talk to someone professionally about your emotions and how you're feeling. And mostly just have confidence in yourself. Once you once you make that decision and you step away from toxicity. Don't give into because you will you will suck it and crush yourself and you'll have the those voices going on in your head And I I saw it in my own journey, and I've seen it in women I've talked to of you know, the phone calls of, hey, I miss you at church, come get coffee. It's okay to say no to that. And and not to not to go back and you you don't owe anyone anything. You owe god everything. Yeah. And you owe no person anything. And so just have confidence in who you are, who god says you are. And that's all that matters. Is who is God to you, and who does he say you? Yeah.

0:36:24
I I'm in an agreement with you on on these points. They're so important, and I love the tip about keeping a journal and writing your feelings down before you come face to face with someone because sometimes in the heat of the moment. Right? We say things that you can't take back. It may be all correct. But you just can't take it back. Yeah. Right? So I love that idea and that suggestion, and it could be used in any area of our lives.

0:36:57
And therapy point, I'm I've become a great proponent of it now, you know, I I I was raised in an environment where therapy was not necessary. You took it to the Lord, each other. But there is a place for that and a season for that. And yeah, it's just important to to take care of yourself spiritually as well as as emotionally and physically. I think I think that's a whole package based learning. We need to do that. What is one important lesson that you've learned through the last couple of years? I have learned that, you know, when when god gives you a gifting and god gives you a calling, that he he wants you to and he expects you to use that to the fullest of your abilities. And that looks different for everyone.

0:38:00
But for me, personally, it was having that confidence to stand up and say no. This this is the voice God gave me and, you know, starting something like a a podcast or a media company and now, you know, we have an online merch store and we have a digital magazine and we we have all of these things And I think back to that woman in my early thirties who was passionate and was so driven and so wanting to put myself out there for the lord and being told that that was a selfish and prideful dream and that my place, you know. I if I wanted to teach, if I wanted to talk, I could do that to the little kids in the Sunday school classroom. And so, really, I've learned to have confidence in myself. And if if this is something that God has asked me to do, I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna I'm not gonna listen to what anyone has to say, I'm gonna listen to what God is asking me to do. Amen. Yeah. Ignore the naysayers. Follow the voice of God. He's your your leader in that.

0:39:27
Before we say goodbye, what is one thing or what are you most excited about right now? Right now, I am so excited. Like I said, my my cohost and I we started this company and we are taking the leap. We both work day jobs. And so starting in May, we will be doing ASHA media full time. Wow. And I am it is terrifying, but it is so exciting for us to be able to just pour all of our time and resources into that and be able to come alongside women and just help them as as they're navigating their journey with God.

0:40:24
Well, Amanda, I thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your story with my listeners out of the darkness. To my friends, please check out the show notes on connecting with Amanda and please subscribe and share to grow our community. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. To stay connected, follow me on Instagram and Facebook. If you like this podcast, can you help me find new listeners by leaving a rating and review. This small step takes only a moment, but really helps grow the listening audience. So let me thank you in advance. I hope you have a wonderful day and until next time. Let's continue on our journey as followers of Jesus Christ. I am Ruth Hovsepian.