Porn Addiction: SARAH & MATT WOHLGEMUTH Journey to Healing and Restoring Their Marriage

In this powerful and eye-opening episode, we dive into the devastating effects of porn addiction on individuals and their relationships. My guests, Matt & Sarah Wohlgemuth, share their personal journey of healing and restoration after their marriage hit rock bottom due to Matt's struggles with alcoholism and pornography addiction. 

We discuss the misconceptions surrounding porn, its impact on both men and women, and the emotional intimacy and connection within a marriage. We delve into the personal experiences of Matt and Sarah, uncovering the truth about their actions and the effects on their marriage. We also discuss the importance of openness, accountability, and forgiveness in overcoming porn addiction and rebuilding relationships. 

Matt and Sarah share their separate yet intertwined journeys of self-discovery and recommitment to each other, emphasizing the power of faith and determination in rebuilding a marriage after porn addiction. Join us as we explore the courage it takes to publicly discuss overcoming addiction and the healing process for individuals and couples. 

Matt and Sarah emphasize the importance of sharing their story to give others hope and a sense of camaraderie in their struggles. Ultimately, they hope listeners will take away the message that they are not alone and there is always hope in overcoming addiction.

To hear about Sarah Wohlgemuth's personal story, listen to Episode 06 - February 13, 2023


Connect with Sarah and Matthew Wohlgemuth:

Sarah - www.linktr.ee/coachsarahw  

Matt - http://www.instagram.com/matt.wohlgemuth

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Transcript

0:00:00
Porn addiction is a real issue. As a matter of fact, forty million US adults regularly visit Internet porn sites ten percent of US adults admit to having an addiction to sexual content on the internet seventeen percent of all women struggle with porn addiction. Men who are happily married are sixty one percent less likely to look at porn. Twenty percent of men and thirteen percent of women admit to viewing pornography at work. One in three porn viewers are women. Hi. I'm Ruth Hovsepian.

0:00:43
Welcome to the Out of The Darkness podcast, where we help you navigate life's trials based on paid and difficult truths. Matt and Sarah Wohlgemuth publicly shared their story of a restored marriage after it hit rock bottom in two thousand fourteen. Match shares his struggle with the addictions of alcoholism and pornography. He is passionate about recovery through connection and relationships, striving to become the true man God created him to be. Sarah shares her healing story from the effects of shame from past trauma and abuse and how hope is possible in the darkest places. She is passionate about inspiring thousands to release shame and step into full abundance. Together, Mad and Sarah are on a mission to see many lives transformed. To connect with Sarah and Matt, check out the show note. Welcome, Sarah and Matt.

0:01:45
I am so glad to have both of you on today to have a discussion about the effects of one of the worst addictions known to men and that is porn addiction. This subject's subject not only affects men as most people think, but it affects women as well. And unfortunately, unlike other addictions, we are either embarrassed or feel it's a taboo subject. And we don't talk about it openly. So I am very grateful that you are both here together. Jump right in, and I'll have you guys tell us a little bit about who you are, how you met, got married, and have a family, and how you found yourselves in the middle of forgiveness and healing.

0:02:36
Okay. So we actually met when we were sixteen. So we kinda say we were child childhood sweethearts, but we had a very big break in between. So that's a period where we were best friends for a few years. We dated. He was the love of my life. I would have said I journaled countless pages about him. Oh, sweetheart. All the things, but we only dated we were best friends for a few years, so we only dated for a couple of weeks before we both actually went quite wild in our our our team years and started partying and all those things. And we had a probably five years for sure of total, like, disconnect. He ended up in our two weeks dating. He ended up breaking my heart. I would have been journaled that I was never gonna be with anyone ever again and screw him and and so we had quite a few years apart where we moved out of he moved away, and we were we were disconnected from each other's lives for a long time.

0:03:41
And we keyed back together let's say, what age were we twenty? Probably twenty eighteen. So probably by the time we're in twenty one ish, we kinda came back together. Big huge story, but we ended up you know, God really confirmed to me, specifically, he really had I don't know if he confirmed. I don't know if he would've said God's was that present in your life, but I know I had journaled about needing some things checked off my list to order them up my order again. And, god, that brought us back together and we got married When we were about twenty twenty Twenty five. Mid twenties? Yep. Something like that. Yep. And you have children? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Two beautiful teenagers. Seventeen and fourteen.

0:04:32
Tell me a little bit about you know, you you found yourselves back together and you're building a family together. How does How do things start to fall apart? I guess, from my perspective, like, I I came out of addiction has been has been a struggle for me since my teenage years. Mhmm. And before we got married, I had I really struggled with an alcohol addiction, and that's something that I had been in recovery from prior to her marriage and even early in her marriage. And I had been sober from alcohol. But I guess, really, as we get into more of the pornography addiction, that was something that I brought into the marriage. So even from the start, you could probably say there was there was a barrier there with with the pornography addiction, a barrier to to us really achieving any significant intimacy.

0:05:26
Yeah. They they say that with a porn addiction comes a lot of other addictions. And it is one of the most difficult ones to I don't wanna say identify, but, you know, talk about and pinpoint in our lives. And break free from because everything else I think that physically we can distance ourselves from But in this day and age, in this, you know, society, it is very difficult to do it. Right? You have a smartphone or you have some Internet It's right there, right, in our hands. It's not like an alcoholic who says, okay, I'm I'm not gonna bring any alcohol in the house. I'm not gonna go to a bar. But with corn it. It totally is something that permeates our lives at this point.

0:06:17
So Matt, let me let me switch this to you a little bit and ask you, where did you come up with the courage? To speak about your addiction publicly and with Sarah, what was that that prompting for you? Well, the the the real prompting for me was when our marriage didn't fall apart. I hadn't I hadn't talked about it with anybody really definitely not Sarah until that happened. But at that point, I guess, I came to a really what you would call the bot the bottom for me. Right? I hit bottom. So in order for me to to really make a choice to get better or to progress even lower, I had to start to deal with it. So I I would say that was the first point where I even kind of acknowledged it to myself. But then in doing so, I guess you would say, Sarah was the fur the first person that I told, but I I had enough knowledge of addiction recovery through my through my alcohol addiction that I knew I knew as soon as I identified it as an addiction, I knew how to I knew what I needed to do to overcome it, and that was to speak, speak it out and to to grow connections through relationship the same way that I had dealt with the -- Mhmm. -- my own religion. Yep. Yeah.

0:07:40
So, you know, if we take a step back and and look at this because, you know, I know there are people that have said to me, even believers that have said to me, what is the problem with watching porn? You know? And to me when that comes from a secular perspective, I say, okay, I I'll, you know, I kind of understand where they're coming from. But when it comes from within, you know, the church family or someone who says that they're a believer and they say to me, you know, but with what is wrong with watching porn? I'm not hurting anyone. I may be single or if they may be married. But what do you think? I know what I why why I think it's wrong, but I'd love I'd love to hear it from either one of you or both of you. What is the problem with watching porn? I think I'm gonna jump in just quickly because it brings up to me. I remember we learned after our marriage exploded. That was in year seven when our marriage exploded. We both had done things, by the way. It wasn't his his his stuff. I had done stuff too.

0:08:44
For instance, what happens if you would masturbate, let's stay to, you would take an object, the edge of a table. And let's say, you would masturbate over and over and over while you're looking at the the edge of a table. And you would orgasm. So you would masturbate an orgasm while looking at the edge of a table. Eventually, what would happen is your brain would associate and get turned on by the edge of a table. That's how powerful God's made our our release in our is it dopamine? What's the release when you orgasm? Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:19
And so that there's so much power in that that what happens is now, you know, young kids are getting into this fake thing that's happening where now they're training their brains to be addicted to something that's not tangible. It's something that's that's so that not a a poor a rep not a rep, but a poor Counter fit. Counter fit for the real thing. Because the power of staring into your partner's eyes and, like, god designed us to to have this physical, incredible reaction to staring into your your your partner's eyes and orgasm being and how having that intense connection with them that is now twisted where these, you know, were trained to, like, just have this screen and that's how we get turned on and now we're with the real person. And you don't know how because your brain's like, well, that's not how what I'm that's not I I have to orgasm to to this this thing. Not this. And so there is such a disconnect. It's a scientific thing. It's not just like some churchy thing. It's actually your brain is getting messed up in learning the the counterfeit for the real deal. And that's a huge issue. You're not able to connect now with Yeah. You have to you have to rewire yourself and and, you know, for for many different things. Right? It it's not just you know, that intimate act between husband and wife. And then even if a single I'm single. And having to overcome my addiction my wires had to be you know, like, I had to rewire it. And it took me time to get to the point where I said, okay. You know, like that that urge that, you know, that that you feel sort of starts to go away and you can handle it.

0:11:15
Matt, what do you see as a problem, as a person coming from that addiction? Howard Bauchner: Yeah, I mean, there's there's two parts of it. The the first part I always challenge people with is if they say they're they don't have an addiction, so there's no problem. I would definitely challenge someone to do a little research into the old foreign industry. It doesn't take you long to find out it's not harmless. Right? There's lots of coercion, blackmail. It's very entwined and intertwined in the in the sex trade. Lots of harm is done. So it's it's Chances are very, very, very high that what you're viewing is not harmless. Yeah. Right? It's it's somebody doing something against their will. So that's one part of it, I guess, for somebody that may argue with, they're not addicted to it.

0:12:00
But, yeah, as far as the addiction, like, the the pharma does to me, it it completely blocked my ability to be intimate. Right? I mean, it became dependent on this dopamine rush that was counterfeit like Sarah said. And I did and I and I it I became unable to be intimate with my wife. Right? Yeah. It could be physical, but I could not I cannot be emotional or spiritually intimate because of of this other thing that I had brought in. Right? Yeah. I also found that you you hit on a point and that's the emotional part of it. And, you know, how can you be emotional with someone else when you're emotional your emotions and I'm doing air quotes is being, you know, pointed towards something that is fabricated. And I also found that I could not I could not step into intimacy with God, you know, because of that secret. And to me, that that was a hindrance to me in building my relationship with with God.

0:13:04
I wanna read a couple of statistics and get, you know, like, your your thoughts on this. But according to the National Coalition for protection of children and families, forty forty seven percent of families in the US reported that pornography is a problem in their homes. That's a staggering percentage. And then it says that pornography increases marital infidelity rate by more than This is mind blowing three hundred percent. And then finally, forty percent of sex addicts lose their spouses. And in other words, they'll get divorced or separated. Fifty eight percent have financial issues. And thirty three percent lose their jobs. This is mind blowing. And, you know, like, the statistics are out there and You know, the percentage of women maybe is a bit lower, but it's still there. It's just staggering what you know, this sort of the world's as innocent past time, how it is affecting our our families, how did this affect your family as well because obviously you guys have you're married, but there's that emotional connection with children and with other family members.

0:14:28
How was that for you? I I think it I mean, it it very much I guess there's two parts. So the one part is you're very consumed with your addiction. Right? So any kind of spare time or any opportunity you're you're you're using, I guess, so to speak, right, in in an addiction term. But you're also becoming very distant. There's this there's definitely the shame factor that even though I maybe didn't by the end, I wasn't maybe, like, acutely aware of of being ashamed, but you just you just kinda split you become two people and you kind of just Yeah. You you just really you can't connect with anybody. You're not you're not invested in in relationships. I guess, the the way I would put it. I didn't I didn't take the time to invest, to pursue an emotional relationship with anyone. My wife and my kids, my family. I I was just very emotionally distant and immature. I didn't know how. Right? I had never I had never even go there.

0:15:32
Sarah, how did you feel about it when when Matt, you know, told you about this addiction? What was your reaction to it? I mean, that was our big moment. Right? By this point, we had reached a place of we you know, I'd never knew why we were hitting walls, but we were hitting walls. We went to church, we were in marriage, tree we did, marriage counseling. We we did, but we were in many places. Always walls. Always walls. Always, always, always, always, there's a disconnect.

0:16:08
And, I mean, I'm not putting all the blame on him because I carried my own wounds into the marriage that I didn't hadn't dealt with from my past. And -- Mhmm. -- you know, and those were poisoning me in silence. So I was I was not able to give to him in a fully intimate way because I had not dealt with my wounds, you know, abuse and rape and since up in my comments. That I had carried into the marriage. And so we both have these kind of we were trying, trying, trying, and and when he told me, I had chosen about three months prior to him telling me, I had chosen to leave the marriage in a very distinct way of walking out with another man and my whole intent was to end our marriage. Tell him what I was doing and it was gonna be dead, unknowing to me that this he had his side of things that had been going on.

0:16:52
So when we ended up telling each other, I went into it thinking I was about to tell him what I had been doing. I had totally shut my heart down to him. I hated him. I remember thinking, I hate him. Like, there's nothing that I'm respectable or nothing that I love. I we are just, like, roommates who I can't stand. I'm ready to be done. I've tried enough. And so I was ready to say, here's what I've been doing, and he goes, woah, stop. I gotta share something with you.

0:17:20
And when he shared it, I was just, like, What in the war? Like, all of her marriage? All of her marriage. You've been that was my reaction. You've been lying literally every second of I couldn't comprehend it. It was I was so shocked yet it made sense. Like, I was shocked, but all of a sudden it was, like, Oh. And all of a sudden, I thought of things that I had noticed and didn't wanna see and the denial. Right? I had no, you know, get there was signs there I wasn't push I didn't push hard enough, I guess, or whatever. So our marriage yeah. Our marriage exploded. Obviously, we both caused absolutely an eruption. Mhmm. Yeah.

0:18:05
Shock and disbelief, and but me going outside of the the relationship in a physical relationship, I I think I I felt the same from him. Like, for seven years, he had been looking at other women. Like, how to me, it was no different. It was, like, doing this for seven years. I've only been doing it for seven years. I almost felt justified, actually, to be honest. I wasn't in a good place. So, like, well, we're I have something on you now, screw you. You know, that's where we were at that point. Yeah. And and it's interesting because I have heard from people that who are tornadic or recovering tornadoes, let's say, well, I didn't do anything with anyone else. You know, I didn't cheat, but coming from, you know, like me coming from that, I know what that mindset is because you are cheating and Sarah, when we talked, I think, about it, in the last time we spoke, I had, I think, one of us had said that women are addicted to porn, not necessarily only for imagery, but they like the the to read.

0:19:09
And, you know, they're the ones like the fifty shades of gray is a great example of that. They may say, I'm not addicted to porn. I don't like porn, but they're reading pornographic material or these love stories, you know, romance stories that are you know, soft porn. It is porn. You know? And then they come with the expectations of their husband their husband has to react to them the way the man in the story is, you know, like the lead of the story is, And that has a huge damaging effect, I believe, on marriages as as well.

0:19:50
Matt, what does your or what did your journey look like, you know, from the, you know, you you confessed to to Sarah and So what was the next steps that you guys took? Yeah. For me, it was I mean, I immediately got involved. I had a mentor and I may immediately got involved in a in a men's recovery group. I think the and the one thing I was gonna add before about I mean, porn is is so unique in in in as an addiction. It is kinda like a two headed beast in a way where you have all that shame Right? And and you and you can easily hide your addiction where other addictions will become more obvious. Plus, it's so so accessible. So you have this -- Yeah. -- the shame and this this hiding, and then it's it's, like, accessible with data, smartphones, like, it's just It's just unbelievable at this point how accessible it is. So it's really it really can trap you in in a big way.

0:20:49
But, yeah, for me, I I was very open about it because of my previous involvement in addiction recovery. I I knew what I needed to do to get free. I needed to surrender it and I needed to get involved with other people that were that were open about their struggles. With it. So I did get involved in a group very early on that I went to regularly and connected with men and built relationships with men that that talked about it. And that was really the the the biggest step. I took some more practical steps safeguarding myself, especially at the beginning with with, I guess, blockers and all those kinds of things. For accountability in that.

0:21:33
But, I mean, the the big thing really, you can't do it other than having accountability connection relationships -- Yeah. -- being real. So yeah. Yeah. That that's hard because when I was doing this, I did it on my own because the shame of it was too great. You know, I'm a I'm a pastor's daughter had grown up in the church, you know, how who do you ask for for help on this. Right? Who do you go to talk to about this? Right? The shame was great and and dealing with it it's doable. You know, I wanna discourage people. It it is doable, but it is so much easier, I believe, that if you have an accountability partner, whether it's your spouse or a therapist or a pastor or pastor's wife, whatever the situation is. But I truly believe accountability is a huge deal. How do you go from that to forgiveness and healing in your relationship. Yeah. That's a good question.

0:22:45
I mean, forgiveness, I think, for me, forgiveness was very first off. It was definitely a choice. I don't know that I necessarily felt it, but I chose that I was going to forgive because I felt it was the right thing to do. And it's not an easy thing to do. I think it's forgiveness and love are very similar and that you it is a choice you have to make, and then you start to I mean, obviously, I had my own things to work on. So There was a forgiveness process, but it was also about me saying no matter what, I need to work on getting myself healthy. Right? Even if -- Mhmm. -- even if our marriage doesn't last, I still need to become healthy. I can't live. I can't go on like this no matter what happens outside of myself? I would and what about you, sir? Yeah. Like, that you feel like God asked you to just Yeah. Yeah.

0:23:41
I guess the reason why I chose forgiveness, definitely. I mean, I did I did feel like I had a very base belief of god. I I grew up in a Christian home. So I definitely felt God talking to me early on, and it was first my about my addiction, but if I knew I needed to follow God in order to overcome my addiction. And part of that was becoming a a a husband that God asked us to be. And that is to love without condition and forgive and lead and be a protector. So all those things are definitely I I felt I knew I had heard God speak to me in that way. So so that was kind of my where my choice came from.

0:24:24
It was it was, okay. If I'm gonna do this, I need to do all of this. Right? I can't I can't just do part of it. So part of this is to love -- Mhmm. -- to forgive. Yeah. And be a husband. Right? Like, being a husband, Yeah.

0:24:39
Local sense is is quite a daunting task if you if you really start to understand it. Mhmm. Yeah. I think both for husbands and wives. Right? The our gen our generation. Pupu's, you know, marriage, marriage you just walk away from marriage. Right? And I know people come to me sometimes thinking that I will encourage them to get divorced because I am divorced. I mean, I I got divorced for different reasons. But I'm not. I'm not a proponent for divorce. I truly believe that if a couple wants to make a marriage work, you know, they may have to go for counseling and, you know, go for therapy. Whatever it takes, I believe that a marriage can be healed. With the exception to the rule if there's physical abuse, whatever, I think I think each each relationship is very unique in itself that I truly believe that if we are faithful, you know, god is the third person in our relationship.

0:25:49
So tell me a little bit about how your faith helped you rebuild your marriage? You know, did it did faith come before rebuilding, or was it something that you guys kind of worked on together. I think it was a for you, I think because god I mean, you would say the day that we told each other is the first time you really felt like I spoke to you clearly. Right? And that was your journey with you. For me, it was Faith first. Yep. Right? There it was made to make a choice.

0:26:24
And and I guess I had the sometimes I put it this way, I had the advantage of of being at the bottom. So when you're when you hit a bottom, you don't have a lot of choices to make. Right? If you wanna get if you wanna get better. Amen to that. You have to you have to just do right there. So I have that -- Yes. -- almost a blessing in a way if when you look back from today. Yeah. So it was definitely faith first because it wasn't a feeling. It was a no it was a hearing of God and a and a knowledge of this is what I need to do. Yeah. And I mean, I feel like God was very clear in his design for you because you know, addiction is a selfish. Mhmm. He lived a selfish life. Right? Mhmm. There is. And now all of a sudden, God's like, Of course. You're about to learn what a self less life looks like.

0:27:11
To pursue a marriage with a wife who at that time, I was like, screw you. I'm not in this. Like, he was like, I'm not leaving regardless. Like, I'm gonna do the right thing as a husband and a father, and I'm gonna just be there. And if you to walk on, Sarah. I understand, but I still have to do the right thing. That was where he was.

0:27:29
It took me about three months to catch up to that. And for me, it was I wouldn't I would say that my when I chose to finally go after it because it was three months of screw you leave, and he was like, I'm not leaving. I'm doing the right thing. You wanna leave? And I was like, get out. He's like, I'm not. I'm gonna be here. I'm not gonna be angry. I'm just gonna, you know and he did start to change without my involvement.

0:28:00
He was just doing his thing, going to meetings, mentored, taking the kids to church, I would get up in the morning. He'd be reading at, like, five in the morning books, like, he was never like this before. He was changing into someone I didn't recognize, and I didn't believe it. I was like, yeah. The other shoe is about to drop. Like, just give it up. Your facade is like, nice try, Matt. You're not winning me back, and he's like, it doesn't matter doing it anyway. I know God's asking him to become a man of, you know, of pursuit and selfless love and all the things.

0:28:31
So it took about three months for me to catch up. And, you know, it it it yeah. And that was it was God that got a hold of me. Really, again, it was bad. Mhmm. So I guess faith was definitely involved in both of us. And god, like, very distinctly showing up in each of our lives in very individual different ways. But it was God that captured our hearts for sure. Yeah. For error. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Matt, what was it that was driving you? You know, because For anyone that wants to hear more of Sarah's story, they can go back a couple of episodes, and I'll link it to this one to hear about that. But Matt, what was that driving force? Because honestly, you know, that is a difficult situation to be in when your spouse says it's not my problem. It's yours. You know, I'm not dealing with this anymore. Many of us have had to deal with that where they don't see a problem. Everything is good for them.

0:29:24
How did you have that stamina, that wherewithal to to keep going when Sarah was pushing you away? That's a great question. I mean, definitely, God played out a huge part in it, but I I think I, like, I mean, I was so determined to do the right thing. Like, I I really felt in my heart that I needed to just stuff, like, draw a line in the sand. I remember I remember meeting a guy early on, and he made the the analogy of I think he's, like, today you need to just put a put a mark in the sand and move forward. And and just do the right thing. And I and I really stuck with me. And I was like, yeah. Right. I just need to do the right thing no matter what. Person like, for me as a as a husband and as a man. So I kinda drew a line in the sand, and I just started to move forward. And I started to really study very practically, like, okay. What does God say for for husbands? Right? And read verses on marriage and loving your wife unconditionally. Serving and and forgiveness and all these things, and I just and I I guess I had a lots of opportunity to to practice them early on. Right? So it was wasn't, like, I can say I didn't feel like it. There was a lot of me venting to my mentor and to my accountability partners and saying, this is, like, this is way too hard. I can't do this. And people encouraging me to say, no, you you can do this. Right? Like, this is this is not possible. It was worth it. It was worth the show you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:56
What what would you tell a couple that came to you and said, look, I don't think we can do it. You know, there's addiction in the it and it could be, you know, a multitude of addictions. Right? We're talking about porn today, and and I know that that's a huge one in marriages. But what what word of encouragement would you tell a couple that came to you and said, is there hope for us? Is there light at the end of all of this for us? Yeah.

0:31:26
I mean, I would definitely encourage them. First off, they're gonna need to to work at it. I I think I would first ask them if they're willing to make it work. Right? And and if one of them is even to say, yeah, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Okay. Well, then we could start, right, and and and then you start to go to the process of this is what it this is what it means. Right? To be a husband or this is what it means to be in a marriage.

0:31:49
And first off, if they were in a position like us, I would strongly encourage. I mean, there's they're definitely gonna need to get themselves healthy individually. Right? Like, it worked on themselves individually. I I heard us saying once a while ago, it equals like this. It says if two people are right with God. They'll be right with each other. So meaning if they're healthy and I I believe have a relationship with God, are in a good place. They will be able to to work it out no matter where they come from.

0:32:22
But it's hard hard work. I would never -- Sure. -- report that. It's hard. Yeah. Especially if you come Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I I think I think that you know, that's that's powerful what you just said. And yeah, you're right. It is difficult to overcome, you know, to to forgive and to to take the next step to heal as a couple.

0:32:49
So my next question to you, Matt, is this. How did you get the courage to talk about this publicly? Because I know that there is shame, you know, or or shame put on us. I mean, we already have enough shame that, you know, we of our past, but then we have the added shame. So What gave you the courage to get out here to come on a podcast like this and tell your story for others?

0:33:17
I think for me, it was, like, I experienced so much freedom first off. Mhmm. Being open about it. Right? With with my mentor, with accountability people. And and I wanted to share I I quickly realized how many than our people in general. Right? Like you said, I was struggling with this. So I knew I felt and I wouldn't say it's easy. It's easier now than it was at the beginning.

0:33:42
But I felt it was part of my responsibility to be open about it in a in an open setting. So people can hear and say, oh, yes. I can relate to that. Maybe I maybe I can get help too. Right? So so I think if we can be bold and share it and be and be open about our lives, it'll give other people hope. Right? And they'll say, okay. I'm not alone. Right? Because, I mean, I I know for myself, I felt like I was all alone. And that's how it automatically works. You get isolated and you think you're the only one -- Mhmm. -- that's struggling. But that's that's absolutely a lie. Right? Like you read the statistics and and so I think the more open we are about it, the more bold we can be, the more upfront. The more people that will find help. Yeah. I'm stating it's Yeah. And I am actually, like, it's that's where the pieces. Right?

0:34:31
It's, like, very early on once god, we both surrendered, which eventually I did too -- Mhmm. -- is we realized, like, we're very passionate about, look, the the saying, I I've set up I said I say many times by Morgan Harper Nichols says, be willing to tell others how you climbed your mountain. Because that can become a page in someone else's survival guide. And we both have that same passion of, like, look, if you wanna take my life as an example of yeah. I yeah. It there's there what? Major shame for being becoming the person I became and for you, but that shame likes nothing more than isolation to keep us in isolation darkness. And and and we can -- Yeah. -- release that and say, like, look, we have a full faith in God, and this is our struggle, and this is what we overcame. And you're not alone. And if we can be a guide to help someone else, you know, hold on to hope that they maybe haven't had before, very passionate. It's like, you know what? Take our life and see example. We're not that we're not willing to walk through hell and keep it inside. So, like, look, we walked through hell and we came out. So you know, that is now our mission is to, like, whatever you wanna take restoring. Yeah. We hope it's hope in healing and and, I don't know. Yeah.

0:35:50
And a part of it is I mean, in recovery, you learn too that that you have to part of my responsibility is to give back. And I and I think a part of all of my responsibilities is if we receive a gift we need to give it away. Right? We need to we need to give it back because we've been having this gift of our marriage back. But part of our responsibilities to give that away so other people can experience that gift. Mhmm. Yeah.

0:36:15
It took me it took me time to figure that went out and it was sort of I I wasn't ready to talk about it and and it just came around because of a book that I was putting together. And I was told that people will relate to my own personal experiences rather than a general kind of, you know, teaching So I had to revisit those those spots. And, Sarah, you're you're spot on about saying that, you know, our secrets need darkness, it's dark the darkness, and our shame needs darkness to grow. And, you know, the last I think it's like the last three years that I have been talking about my own, you know, journey of recovery from, you know, like, sex and porn. And it was hard the first few times. I could just feel myself, like, heating up and dying and shame and not being able to look at people in their eyes. And three, you know, three years or so later about talking about it and especially now with this podcast, you know, talking about it.

0:37:19
So openly, I see the value of what you said, Matt, that, you know, I I need to take what I went through and honor God by saying to telling other people about it. Right? And giving other people hope. And and to me, that's what it is. If I can reach one person and give one woman or one man hope, that, you know, just like your marriage, you know, surviving and making it through and getting stronger, there is hope for us through Christ you know, and through his healing power. So, you know, at this point in your lives, I know you guys have a lot going on. What are you the most excited about right now about what you are doing? It's been a wild ride, dude. I It's like, sharing it. Yeah. Sharing I'm seeing other people's lives. Right, you know, transformed and and seeing them wanna do the journey.

0:38:23
And, you know, I always wanna be careful that because I've I've I've I've shared our Mary's story before. And, you know, there are those people where it's like, well, that's nice for you. But, like, my partner is not on the same page. Right. And I wanna just be really clear and that when we began our healing journey, it was not together. It was separate. And he had to do the right things for him. As he said, he he had to step forward in his own life. And so that I when I came around, was I had to do the right thing for me so that whether I have a a marriage the end of it or not. In the end, it was, I am healed from my wounds in my past. And that you it doesn't just because, perhaps, this doesn't always end up. Right? This is not always. But to do the right thing for you, So you get to be free and you get to be healed and you get that whether or not it always ends up how our story did. Right? And I just wanna encourage people. You do it either way. We either way fight for you either way. Yeah. I think prayer is a huge way of taking that journey, you know, as we take that journey. And, you know, I I really believe in being, as we said before, being accountable. And and but also our prayer life and our faith needs to grow. Right? Because that's where we need to get that supernatural strength to keep going. You're not unplugging it you know, plugging into our life every day and and making it move forward.

0:39:59
What is the the biggest takeaway you hope that listeners today take from our conversation? I think the biggest takeaway that I would say that definitely a couple, I guess, really. They're the one would be that they're they're not alone. I guess, nobody's ever alone or not on in a unique enough struggle that we that somebody can't relate to us. Yeah. And also that there's always hope. Right? Even when we don't I think there's any hope or or any way we can get out of something or overcome something -- Mhmm. -- if there's always it's always possible. Mhmm. Yeah. Our hope is in the lord. Yeah. Hundred percent.

0:40:44
What would you say, Sarah, anything from you? I think the same. We're just touching it to to instill that that there's hope. There is always hope -- Yeah. -- you know, regardless of the human, there's still hope. There's still light, you know, redemption. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, Sarah and Matt I thank you so much for being on out of the darkness today and sharing your story and your journey. Thank you. Any problems? Yes. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. To stay connected, follow me on Instagram and Facebook. If you like this podcast Can you help me find new listeners by leaving a rating and review? This small step takes only a moment. But really helps grow the listening audience. So let me thank you in advance. I hope you have a wonderful day and until next time. Let's continue on our journey as followers of Jesus Christ. I am Ruth Hovsepian.