Navigating Infidelity, Divorce, and Co-Parenting with RUTH ERICKSON

Ruth Erickson is the author of (Un)faithful, a beautiful guide for women to find healing through the fire of infidelity. Join me in the conversation today as we discuss why Ruth wrote this book, who it is for, and how it blesses the victim of infidelity and those surrounding it. Ruth brings such an eye-opening perspective on the suffering of infidelity and the beautiful journey of healing and beyond. Ruth is a wife, mama of four, speaker, coach for women healing from Infidelity, and a worship pastor.



We discuss navigating infidelity with Ruth, whose book (Un)faithful provides insight into her personal journey through infidelity. We also explore the complexities of divorce in a Christian context, the importance of providing support and comfort to those going through a divorce, and how honoring parents and trusting in God's faithfulness is key to producing the fruit of the Spirit.



This conversation explores the complexities of divorce, particularly in the context of the Christian faith. It is discussed how divorce is not always a choice but can be a necessary response to unrepentant sin. We also discuss how churches and individuals should appropriately respond to those going through a divorce. The importance of supporting and comforting those going through a divorce and the need to call out sin with wisdom is highlighted. The episode also shares the personal experience of Ruth Hovsepian, who faced shame and betrayal, and the ways in which they worked through the pain.


Connect with Ruth Erickson:
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✔5 Tips for supporting a victim of an affair: https://bit.ly/3YYbpCd
✔Download the first 3 chapters of (Un)Faithful: https://bit.ly/3k1bkzb

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Transcript

0:00:00
 Ruth Erickson is the author of Unfaithful, a beautiful guide for women to find healing through the fire of infidelity, Join me in the conversation today as we talk about why Ruth wrote this book, who is it for, and how it blesses the victim of infidelity and those surrounding it. Ruth brings such an eye opening perspective not only on the suffering of infidelity, but also on the beautiful journey of healing and beyond. Ruth is a wife, mama four, speaker, coach for women healing from Infidelity, and a worship pastor. Hi. I'm Ruth, Hovsepian. Welcome to the Out of The Darkness Podcast, where we help you navigate lights trials based on tape and difficult truths. Welcome Ruth, to out of of the darkness. Today, I am so glad to have you with us and to share your experience and be vulnerable with us today. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. Ruth, Let's start off by you telling us a little bit about your family and yourself sort of what you are doing currently. Yeah. I have the wonderful honor of being the worship pastor at a church in Northern Idaho. And my husband and I have a blended family, so I have a stepson and two sons for my previous marriage, and then we have a little girl together. So we we have a yours mine and ours family, and our daughter was a total gift and surprise. She's a miracle baby. And so, yeah, we're just doing that busy parenting life. And I recently published my first book, which still feels like a miracle that god, helped me accomplish that in the middle of busy work and mom and church life. But, yeah, we're just keeping keeping our heads down, getting things done, and trying to enjoy and make memories a long way. Yeah. Your daughter is the cherry on the caveat for with all the boys. She's the cherry on the caveat.
 
 0:02:24
 Well, when and why did you decide you wanted to write your book about your own experience with infidelity? Yeah. You know, it was fairly early on in my healing that I knew that God was going to use my story to bring healing to other women. There was a woman in my life that walked with me. And, you know, I think we had a couple conversations. I think we only met together one time, but her life and seeing that she was healed was it just testified hope to me so deeply.
 
 0:02:55
 And I I knew kind of even in that very early stage that that god wanted to use my story and that I wanted him to use my story. It was a little bit later that I you know, I've always loved writing always been very expressive and creative whether it's in music or or written word or verbal word. So I had the desire to write I wrote a blog and journal extensively in the painful times, which I was able to, you know, use some of that content in the book. But it was just kind of a slow realization and the calling to feel like at some point I wanted to write. It was I wanted got to decide the timing and and really the content of the book and what he wanted me to share and what he wanted me to not share.
 
 0:03:41
 And I felt of stirring I think it was it was probably about seven years after the divorce where I felt very stable and healed and I could interact with my story in a in a way that wasn't painful or very triggering. But it was close enough that I could really remember everything that had happened and and in a very coherent way, I could recall it pretty easily. And I had I've been walking with women kind of one on one very organically since my divorce. And some women reconcile some women divorce, but just this you know, being able to walk with them side by side and realize a lot of the things I was saying were the same, the the wisdom and the truth that I found in God's word that helped me applied to my situation was helpful for them. So just kinda wanting to gather all of that together into a book and give the book that I wish I would have had in that moment? I hear you. When when I went through my divorce to all the books out there were not not fitting for me, especially coming in from a church. Background, you know, and just there wasn't enough out there, and there was no social media back then. So that you didn't have that connection and, you know, in a church environment, there really weren't other women that could support me on that. Right? Everybody was either married or single. So I'm I'm glad you wrote about I'm glad you wrote the book. Because it I believe it helps even if it helps one person. Right? Yeah. That's what why we do what we do.
 
 0:05:24
 Would you tell us your personal story of marital infidelity to whatever extent that you wanna talk about? Yeah. I think it's really important to to always convey that I loved my marriage. I loved my husband. I felt like we had something super valuable. I talked in the book. I kind of referred to the marriage as a child that we created together, and I loved child, and I didn't take care of the child perfectly. But, you know, just like as parents, we make mistakes with our children, we have to own up to that. But highly valued.
 
 0:05:57
 I think sometimes when people hear of that kind of darkness and damage, they can kind of export that all the way to the beginning and think oh, this person was just a bad person. I, you know, I married the wrong person, and I really I contend against that. And maybe that's some in some cases true. But in my case, I married a man who checked all the boxes. He was, you know, a believer kind hearted, you know, I I had a lot of input from wise people in my life who all confirmed that they felt, god on it, So entered into that covenant, you know, a little bright eyed and bushy tailed, I think as most new brides are, but with real gravity about what my commitment meant to me and never envisioned a a divorce, never envisioned that he would be capable of that kind of deception because just, again, such a kind hearted person and it really taught me a lot walking through you know, the the his infidelity and uncovering that and and walking through just the level of deception that he was under, the whole there, but for the grace of God, go I think of how important it is for us is believers to continue to stay connected to the heart of God because sin comes in and it's sneaky and it starts small.
 
 0:07:18
 And so, you know, while I don't give any you know, permission or excuse for that kind of behavior and those kinds of choices. I don't believe, you know, he was overtaken by someone else. He he made his decisions. I also realized that I I have the capacity to make similar decisions if I'm not careful with my own heart and my own integrity before the Lord. So So all that to say, we you know, there was a there was a time period we had just had another baby. Things you know, things there's there's time seasons in marriage where there's a little more distance. You have to work harder. I just thought we were in one of those seasons.
 
 0:07:59
 Come to find out the Lord really orchestrated a couple events where I was able to uncover the truth of what was really going on. And was absolutely devastated and traumatized by uncovering an affair. I felt called to for about ninety days have a season where I just waited on the lord. I didn't wanna make an impulsive decision on how to respond to that. Which I'm I'm grateful for that wisdom and really dug into the word, dug into some books that really, you know, I was I was seeking wisdom on how how do I stay faithful to god in the midst of this unfaithfulness? Mhmm.
 
 0:08:34
 Because I knew that if I if I kind of pendulum swung in response if there was vengeance in my spirit or if there was desperation in my spirit to just, you know, dismiss this or in the reverse where I, you know, I active mess because I'm trying to get back at him. I just knew my own heart and future was at stake. I needed to just one of the things that that woman who walked me through said she was the Lord called her to be hidden in Christ, and I just felt like I needed to be hidden in Christ. That he was my defender in my rock and everything else was shaken. Everything else was shattered in my life. But I just knew if I could stay in in god's hands that healing was possible for me that he could restore what had been broken. And so during that ninety days, I was very open and very I desired wreck inacciliation, and there was some movement that made me hope that that could happen.
 
 0:09:29
 But ultimately, at the end, God, again, allowed some more things to be revealed that helped confirm. And I had a very spiritual experience in in prayer where I felt the Lord released me. And even call me to go and follow into the light and separate myself from darkness. And so I don't ever give my journey as a prescription. You know, I describe what God did for me. I think there are certain principles that are that apply in every situation, but it's not like I have, like, the ninety day method or, you know, that I think every woman in my situation needs to wait or needs to go or needs to stay. There's God is so capable of giving his wisdom into specific situations and instances. But you know, I I I just really felt like I needed to be fully surrendered to whatever the Lord called me to do. Because I knew that if he called me to restore, he was gonna give me the strength and the grace to do that. If he called me to go, he would give me the strength and grace to do that.
 
 0:10:29
 That wasn't always an easy thing. I can talk about it now and but, you know, I again, I talk in the book that I lost twenty pounds in a couple weeks. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. It was an incredibly traumatizing time, but I'm grateful for the seeds that I sowed and the things that I did before that happened, so that I had and I was anchored in the lord and in his word, that I had some wisdom that was in there that came out even when I was being pressed like that. I mean, that that is such great wisdom to to tell people that for everyone has a different experience. Yes. And we can we can support and we can have one another as women, but we all have to look at our own situation. It's a unique situation. And I love the fact that you took that ninety days of grace to be still in a way that you worked through whatever you were working through or whatever the Lord had for you. I think that's that's you know, a great point.
 
 0:11:36
 And how difficult was it for you to come to the decision to divorce as a Christian and, you know, the the table of it within our churches. Yeah. I I think, you know, I really wrestled. I I remember saying, Lord, you love unconditionally. I wanna love unconditionally. I have that desire, but there was something in my gut that knew that staying in an unrepentant situation where there was such great sin and a lack of dignity for me. I knew that I I actually felt like it would physically kill me. And I and I told the Lord, if you're calling me to die here, I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna need to know that it's you.
 
 0:12:19
 And as I as I listened to him and I also dove into the word, you can see that there are instances in scripture where divorce is the the you know, the prescribed response to certain unrepidant sin. And I, you know, reading in Jeremiah where God himself issues a degree of divorce. It and and understanding that, you know, I I understand more now that I studied it post divorce. But, you know, that covenant and is a contract, and it can be broken. And that while I love unconditionally, access to me, and the privilege of, you know, of marriage is something that we we don't have to, like, keep earning once we're in covenant. But there are certain things that we can do to break covenant.
 
 0:13:07
 And I felt like I desired to create a new one with him, but that was gonna need to be something that we both chose together And if, you know, at the end of the day, I felt like I needed to honor his choice the way that God honors our choices. And I remember feeling like I identified I I felt like I got to see a glimpse of what God experiences when he just opens the door wide. He you know, what Christ did for us opened the the gate to god's presence and he stands there and he says come and people have a choice whether to reconcile with him or to reject him, and he honors that choice to reject him. And I needed to honor the choice that my husband was making to reject me and, you know, say, I accept that you are this is your choice, this is your path, and I'm going to follow God and I couldn't I couldn't stay united with with him and be united with God. And so it was a very difficult decision for me.
 
 0:14:09
 But I had a very rare and beautiful experience of having wonderful covering both from my family my my father really stepped in as as a a man of god speaking life into me and covering over me no matter what happened that I was safe and covered. And also, godly counsel in my church, we really walked through a Matthew eighteen process. And at the end of the day, we were gonna treat this man as an unbeliever, which meant we were gonna purse they're they were gonna pursue him and love him and call him to you know, preach the gospel to him of of repentance and forgiveness. But that that kind of support in the church setting was is not always the case. And I and I love to be able to tell that story because I wanna give people hope and I wanna affirm all of the leaders and pastors out there who are committed to, like, the full biblical truth who aren't just kind, you know, blinded to marriage at all costs, but that marriage is a a beautiful covenant. It's a reflection of god and his his desire and his design. But that marriage really looks like something. And so you know, again, I refer to a marriage as a child.
 
 0:15:26
 Well, when a child is killed, and a parent decides to bury that child. We don't shame them for the burial. We grieve with them. And when a marriage dies, because of a covenant ending sin, we as the church have the opportunity to grieve with the person who's burying the marriage through divorce. Now does God resurrected things? Yes, he does. And he has. And we've I've seen it. And we we wanna contend for that, celebrate that when that happens, but we don't require people to carry around a dead body to prove that they have faith or to prove that they're a good Christian. We know that, instinctually, with with you know, when when someone loses a child, we we don't put that on. And if someone does, you know, they yeah. I usually accept it. It it's just so interesting to hear you.
 
 0:16:17
 I had the polar opposite experience when I went through my divorce. And I'm I was the pastor's daughter. So that the the the stir that it caused in the church was so inappropriate for a group of believers because not only was I going through this, as you said, this difficult time of trying to figure out what had happened to my marriage. And, you know, trying to make these decisions, you know, having three children and and going through a separation and divorce is so difficult and yet the church did not support me. Yes. There were individuals that did, but the church as a whole didn't to the point where the there a large number of members walked out of that church -- No. -- because they felt that my divorce affected the ministry of my dad as a pastor.
 
 0:17:25
 No. And when I look back, I think, what Satan really took a hold of us at that moment. And no one was prepared for it. No one knew how to deal with it. And I think, you know, fast forward twenty five years, I think churches and pastors and you know, leaders of the church are much more equipped for it, unfortunately. Right? Yeah. Because it just means that there is more of this in our in our in our churches, but all to say that we need to be there to support one another. It's difficult enough for the couple with what they're going through. And they just need support. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with them because, you know, everybody has their, again, their own situation. But as a church, as believers, we need to support and and and be there for for each other. I think that's I'm so happy to hear that, you know, there there is that other side to to the story Yeah.
 
 0:18:42
 I think sometimes churches and people feel like if they support one of the spouses or both or through a divorce that they are somehow responsible for the death of the marriage. Yeah. So if I'm helping you carry the casket to the grave that somehow I am responsible for the murder. And I just think it's It's good intention and really bad theology. And I think when we get our theology off, we can't you know, I my mentor says, good intentions without wisdom is foolishness. Amen.
 
 0:19:18
 And so, you know, these people probably felt like they were taking a stand for the sanctity of marriage. And what they do, you know, inadvertently is shame a victim and and support the defamation of marriage by saying, this is still a marriage. This this dead body is alive. And so you know, it's because I'm I love life. Doesn't mean I call dead things alive and think that I'm somehow, you know, causing life to be when there's really not. So, you know, I think we do need to make sure that we don't pendulum swing to, ah, marriage is just a piece a paper, you know, but but someone whose whose precious marriage has been broken and they're brokenhearted about it. They're not thinking this is a small thing. This doesn't matter to me.
 
 0:20:06
 And occasionally, you'll have two people in sin walk away from each other at the same time and they're both responsible. But most of the time -- Yeah. -- one person ended that marriage and the other person is bereft, and they both need to be pursued with grace and love in different ways. The sin of the one needs to be called out and dealt with with churches the plan. I mean, the epistles tell us how to do it, and it's hard to do. And sometimes I think it's easier to shame a victim and try to keep them quiet because you know that they actually have the heart to to be shaped by God in that community. And to just avoid the perpetrator because you're afraid you're gonna lose them. But I, you know, when you watch how Jesus operated, and the early church, they were not afraid to call a wolf a wolf. They were not afraid to say no goats welcome, and they they tended the sheep. And again, I'm not I'm not saying I'm judging these people as, you know, as wolves and goats because that's that's the job of leadership to be able to do that.
 
 0:21:07
 But I think we do ourselves a disservice to just try to you know, cook the numbers and say this is a divorce free zone when it's not a sin free zone. So as long as there's sin, there's going to be death and divorce and And so we do what we can. We keep our hearts clean and our hearts pure and and you're and you're right about the shame and you're right about the shame part because I walked around with shame and I actually sat said back in the day short of wearing you know, the Scarlet letter on myself. That's how shame I was. And Yeah. For years, I I walk you know, not physically, but I walked with my head down -- Mhmm. -- because I just was so ashamed of what had transpired in my life. And, you know, the the effects of it go with you. And -- Mhmm. -- tell me a little bit of how you dealt with the effects of betrayal in your marriage. Yeah. You know, I think while I would love to say I'd no longer even deal with the effects. Now eight years later, almost nine or I think, no, it's it's nine years later.
 
 0:22:32
 I I think it's like any sort of, you know, traumatizing wound or their scar tissue or their You need to make sure that the wound stays clean in any operation that needs to happen, and that's very intense. It's usually like a shorter period of time, hopefully, if it's being tended correctly. And then there's kind of like rehab where it's like physical therapy and learning to move those muscles again. And those are kind of different phases, but there's a lot of pain. And so learning how to live well and and and live rightchiously, you know, where we have right relation ship with God while we're in pain is a skill that we have to learn and we all have opportunity in our life whether you deal with infidelity in your marriage or or something else. They're we're all gonna encounter pain. And that's really where I learned the, you know, a good theology of suffering and and the cross. That's why it speaks so deeply to us because God himself identifies with our pain.
 
 0:23:40
 So I think, you know, I I stayed very dependent on the Lord. There was just a lot of prayer, a lot of crying, a lot of therapy. A lot of processing with safe women in my life, you know, kind of nourishing myself in body spirit and mind just you know, one day at a time, I I attended an Al Anon group, which had started before because I I've been told that you have some co dependent issues, you know. They've spoken more like a curse over me, but as I got into, I was like, oh, yes, I do. And that group therapy, you know, the setting was really helpful for me, like, learning how to take responsibility for what was mine, releasing what's not my responsibility, it was very beautiful and helpful, and But the the bedrock just being the presence of god and the word of god, his presence just comforting and being with me in that pain and the word of God being that lamp that I needed to walk straight because just because I was in pain didn't mean that, you know, being unwise was okay now or that I could be disobedient and I had an excuse or something. I needed to even walk more carefully so that I didn't further injure myself. And so yeah. And there were moments where God just touched me and and the healing kind of, you know, zoomed forward. And then there were other things that just took time and right posture to to receive healing.
 
 0:25:10
 What advice would you give to to a divorce couple that is co parenting? Mhmm. Yeah. I there's a a chapter in the book where I talk about divorce, and my motto from early on, which is it sounds silly, but I, like, I wanted to be the best ex ever. Like, I had a desire to be this man's wife that's not the way it is anymore. I have all these boundaries internally and externally, but I want to be able to stand before the lord and be able to stand before my sons one day and say, I did everything I could to honor this man and to, you know, guard whatever health is here. And I can't make it more healthy than, you know, he's willing to make it. But so I I also have, like, a zero bad nothing policy. My boys have never heard me the little of their dad.
 
 0:26:05
 I think it's really tempting when there's a hurt to export that hurt onto another relationship and say, you know, because I'm hurt, because I don't trust him, I don't want my children, to be close to him. Right? I don't want my children to trust him. And I just would really encourage on both sides. But, again, you're you're only you can only do your part. Mhmm. To encourage whatever healthy connection is there between the other parent and your child. You know, there were there were days especially in those early days where it was so painful for me to hear, you know, this other woman's name on the tongue of my babies, you know. But I just had to know that, like, you know, they had a great day, and it's my job as their mother to guard them from this darkness. And so I'm gonna smile and tell them that I love that they enjoyed that, you know. And And, eventually, it just got easier and easier.
 
 0:27:02
 And so I think, you know, trying to to keep things in the right lane. You know, there are things that you do need to confront. There are things you don't need to accept, but making sure that that's all being processed in adult space and the kids are you know, equipped with what they need to know. There are certain situations. I always need to say this, you know, my children were safe with their father. There are instances where you know, the other parent is unsafe. And so you do need to be able to teach your children the skills that they need to cope with whatever their reality is. But we don't need to put too much on them too fast. So it needs to be age appropriate and situation appropriate, whatever we're showing with them.
 
 0:27:41
 And then, you know, I think just trying to continue to operate in forgiveness because in these co parenting relationships, friction's gonna come. New offenses are gonna come, if you get the legal stuff, it's it's really difficult, and it's easy to just pick up offensive, kinda nurture it. But god calls us as believers to continue to cast those things on him and let him be the righteous judge and We don't need to be walked on, but we also don't need to try to battle flesh and blood. So Yeah. I I agree because I've always I always advise women to to keep disagreements outside of the children's little bubble. They don't need to be part of that. And this is between you and their father. What is the point of of doing this?
 
 0:28:35
 And I believe that if you as you said, if your children are safe with their father -- Mhmm. -- then just let them have that time with him. Maybe he doesn't parent the way you parent. That's what makes us so unique and special. Right? We all have different parenting styles, you, you know, you establish what you believe is right in your children's lives. And the children will be able to differentiate between their two worlds so to speak. I don't know if I if that's the right way to say it. But, yeah, they'll they'll know that when they're with mom, this is how they can this is what they can do. And with when they're with that, it's okay to have a snack in bed, for example, you know. But, you know, I think that we have to set that emotion for our children. The children don't need that extra stress in their lives.
 
 0:29:41
 And I agree with you. I I said, you know, when when I got divorced, If I couldn't say anything good, I wouldn't bite my tongue and not say it. Because what was the point that that hurt was because of me and him. Nothing to do with the kids, you know. So why keep stirring it up? And I found it. I don't know if this happened to you, Ruth, but what happened to me was as I healed and it wasn't just healing on its own, as I allowed myself to heal and when I forgave. Mhmm. Those little things didn't bother me anymore. You know, it wasn't important anymore. I didn't need to prove a point anymore. So we need to allow ourselves to heal and we need ourselves to respect the father of our children.
 
 0:30:45
 Again, everyone has a different and unique experience. And, you know, some people, they need to set very strict boundaries for for different circumstances. But, you know, in in our circumstances, in yours, in mine, the father was a good father and we need to help the children build that relationship with their father as well because I think that it's hard enough for our children. Why add to it? Yeah. So yeah. I mean Yeah. I think it's really important to understand even in child psychology, that a child's self concept is so informed with their relationship with their parents. They're attached to these two people. If there's you know, if they were able to attach to both parents in their you know, early years. And so if I disrupt their attachment because I'm offended, I am hurting my child and think you're kind of hurting your ex or what if by bad mapping them, but you're really hurting your child when we do that.
 
 0:31:44
 So for me, I I had to just the rubric in my mind was what's best for the children? What's best for the children? And again, like you said, sometimes what is best for the children is more spaced or supervised visits or whatever. But, you know, in my instance, the what was best for my children was for me to be positive about their connection with their dad and encourage that respect that his rules were, you know, his rules at at his house and I always told them you need to honor your dad's rules and, you know, try to help equip them to have communication.
 
 0:32:13
 When there are value things for me, you know, like, you know, just just take screen time. I have a different role about screen time. He has a different role. So I try to instill in them a value for, you know, taking breaks and being physically active that I hope that they can apply because it's not like he's demanding that they have screen time. But So when there's flexibility, you know, I tried in but there's never shame. I can't enforce those rules, so it's not fair or reasonable for me to export those rules into a different context just the same way. I don't want him to tell them what they can do at my house. So we try to communicate as well as we can to establish where we agree we agree and we're in line where we disagree.
 
 0:32:51
 We offer respect to each other and and support the kids in honoring each each parent in their own. But I've seen it come back around and by the woman you know, talking as mothers now -- Yeah. -- where the mother has spoken so ill of the father or has you know, said things that she that is not necessary. And the children grow up And as they get older and as they develop their own, you know, identities and their own thought processing, you know, the the way they process things, they will come back and say to you, why did you do this? Why did you say that? You know, and I think that as as mothers, our job is to help our children and protect our children. Bad mouthing, their father is not doing that. And it's not honoring what God has put in place for us, has as mothers. And I think we need to remember that even within a marriage, not just the force but a lot of people. Within marriage, you know, you know, as my children have gotten married, I always say to them, treat that your spouse. The way you want other people to treat your spouse. Because if you are bad mouthing your spouse to others, they will feel that they have the right to do the same about yours about. So it's the same between parents. I don't know why we use our children -- Mhmm. -- as a barter or as, you know, blackmail. But -- Mhmm. -- we're seeing you know, these children, a generation of children -- Mhmm. -- growing up with a lot of hurt and with chips and baggage that is not necessary because there's some parents that have put it there.
 
 0:34:51
 Yeah. What What is the most important lesson that you have learned over your journey? That's a great question. I think that being faithful to god is so important and it's become a nonnegotiable for me that That means that it doesn't My faithfulness to God can't rely on the outcomes of someone else's choices. That I know that if I am being obedient to the Lord and I'm under his covering and I'm right with him, that it really doesn't matter what else happens to me. And it does I mean, it matters, but there there is something in that that creates such safety and wholeness for me that you know, there's it's almost like an invincibility of kind of the job situation where it's like all of these things were taken from me, but blessed be the name of the lord. And I think that makes the enemy really scared because it's like these these things I don't wanna say they're tests because I think sometimes that gets really mixed up as the, like, Godson, like, angry school mom who's just trying to, you know, see if I'm gonna fail.
 
 0:36:14
 But there is you know, it says that Hebrews that Jesus learned obedience through his suffering. And doesn't that just blow our minds that Jesus had to learn anything, but he made himself dependent And he showed us how to be obedient through suffering. And I know that sounds terrible. It's a heavy word. That's But it's it's if we can do that, if we can learn how to be surrendered to God in our good times and in our bad times, we are going to produce the fruit of the spirit in our lives. And kingdom building, you know, experiences that that are really indestructible and So that that's what I learned through that. And and through other losses that I've experienced, other griefs that I've experienced, that God is so close. He's so near. We don't have to pretend like everything's okay. That's not what I'm talking about. We can grieve wildly. We can lament loudly. But staying obedient. You you can be obedient to the Lord and still do all of those things.
 
 0:37:18
 What is the biggest takeaway? You hope that listeners learned from our conversation today. You know, I I really pray that that people feel by by witnessing my story, they feel drawn to Jesus. The person of Jesus, the word, and the spirit of God. Because, like I said earlier, my my story can't be a prescription. You can't just take, you know, walk in my steps exactly and and your if your life's gonna be okay. But if you can connect your heart to the heart of God, and let him speak to you, let him heal you, let him correct you, you are going to be okay. And so I hope that that challenges us to walk with him and make choices that align with him, but also gives us great hope that we serve a god who wants to love us and keep us safe and help us heal from the things that we encounter in life that harm us. Ruth, thank you for joining me today and sharing your story, your wisdom, your knowledge with my out of the darkness listeners.
 
 0:38:31
 France, check out the show notes on connecting with Ruth and where you can find how to get the first three chapters of her book unfaithful for free. Thank you for joining me to stay connected Follow me on Instagram and Facebook. If you like this podcast, can you help me find new listeners by leaving a rating and review? This small step takes only a moment, but really helps grow the listening audience. So let me thank you in advance. I hope you have a wonderful day and until next time. Let's continue on our journey as followers of Jesus Christ. I am Ruth Hovsepian.